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>> Taarof is what makes Iranians so lovely to Westeners in the first place (later you will find out that they, too, are just normal people). Interesting, could

by lllllll 11y ago

>> Taarof is what makes Iranians so lovely to Westeners in the first place (later you will find out that they, too, are just normal people). Interesting, could you elaborate on that pls? Just curiosity :)

geff82 11y ago
Well, ask anyone how they think Iranians are (as long as they know some in person) and almost always they will tell you something along the lines of "Wow, they are so extremely nice, so polite and generous". But this is, to some extend, a facade . The more you get to really know Iranians, you understand that they too can be really mean to others, have their fights, say bad things. They just do it in other, more indirect and complicated to understand ways. And Iran is a country 100% operating on Taarof so you need a lot of context to read the meaning of words. For example, once in Shiraz I was offered some icecream by friends of the family and I was like "Yes, sure!". Until this day, they laugh about it, because such directly accepting things is uncommon there (and while otherwise aware of the customs, the possibility of getting some icecream broke my barriers...). They think it's funny when Westeners are direct like that because they, too, watch TV and know our way of life. But if I had been Iranian, my reaction would have been unacceptable unpolite. Along the lines of taarof, many misunderstandings occur that can lead to bad blood in the end without anybody really wanting it in the first place. There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and never sorted out.
- lllllll 11y ago
  Thanks, the word 'facade' is what came to mind reading your reply. Here in Europe I've met several Iranians, though all happenned to have lived in Western countries for many years. I am sure in those cases they are genuinely nice people, so no facades involved. >> There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and never sorted out This resonates with traditional Catholic families too, where "elephants in the room" are not really addressed/dealt with many times. E.g. a daughter/granddaugter having a kid out of marriage etc.
  - geff82 11y ago
    They ARE most probably genuinely nice people, especially in their European context. I could not have married an Iranian women if I was not sure if she and her family were genuinely nice (and they are in tons, I am incredibly proud on my Persian family here and in Iran). This nicety to you is most probably not made up, don't get my former comment wrong. And they are no fools, they know you are European and obey to other rules. But... you will not find out about the inner-Iranian conflicts that arise quite more often than I would have expected and they arise most often around the fine line of taarof. You never experience those calm conflicts as an outsider, you only see them from the inside (and I think I am in the position to say that I am on the inside). And those things are surprising me, especially the lack of conflict solving skills (example: in Europe/USA people tend to forgive you when you confess having made a mistake, in Iran they tend to condemn you so in the end you try to cover)
  - geff82 11y ago
    A real world example for a taroof related conflict: "I think on my last visit she hasn't tried to convince me hard enough to stay overnight so I think I am not wanted" - 1 1/2 years siblings not talking any more. Other sign of taarof-related conflict (real world experience): When family meets, brother has, for some unknown reason, now always "important work" to do and can never attend, when before everything was right.
  - lllllll 11y ago
    Ok I think the Persian people need a Post-Taroof Reformist League. Those unspoken Taroof-ish concerns seem like obstacles that complicate their daily lives (sigh). I command you to plant the reformist seed in their society :D
    - geff82 11y ago
      I try to :) In the form of really often expressing my explicit wish for their wonderful icecream :D :D
    - geff82 11y ago
      But you know...not everything is bad. Taarof makes actual travel to Iran rather smooth and comfortable as people really try to help you the best they can (as long as you have at least a small sense of what is too much, which you get fast).
- user_0001 11y ago
  "Wow, they are so extremely nice, so polite and generous" This is true. Spent 6 weeks driving from the Turkish border to Pakistani border a few years ago with the wife and then 2.5 yr old daughter Countless times we were invited into peoples homes, fed, all but force to stay the night and left with foods / sweets. Aware of the taroof system we refused as didn't want to burden them but even going passed the customary 3 refusals they still insisted. A few occasions we were offered money to help us on the way when they heard about our journey (around the world). This happened in cities / villages from the upper classes to just normal people. One particular instance comes to mind of camped on the outskirts of a small dirt road village near the Persian gulf. About 7.30 we were woken up by a banging on the van. On looking out the window, a small woman dressed head to toes in a chador (black cloak covering everything but the face) insisted we come to breakfast and shower. The wife was still sleeping so we politely declined. 30 minutes later she came back, more banging and insisted, confused why we hadn't come yet, we need to eat and have to shower. She all but grabbed the wife by the hand and dragged her to her house. She put on a mighty fine spread for breakfast. Took our daughter to show her to the neighbour, then took her to the shop to buy food for the lunch she would cook for us. She called her husband, got him to come back from work (he spoke a little English). Put the cable tv and got out a secret stash of homemade red wine and some whiskey. Am not really a big drinker and 8.30am is a bit early for wine and whiskey, but I think I only refused once. Our experience was repeated by all other overlanders we met who had passed through Iran.
  - bklaasen 11y ago
    My wife and I spent three weeks in Iran, escaping Christmas 2008 (we're not religious and we don't have kids, so visiting countries where they don't do Christmas is a brilliant way to escape the madness). It was one of the most wonderful travel experiences we've had. Here's our story of getting Ta'arof wrong in a small country town in rural Gilan: http://threeweeksiniran.blogspot.ie/2009/03/ta-fail.html http://threeweeksiniran.blogspot.ie/2009/03/ta-fail.html
  - geff82 11y ago
    Interestingly, this kind of invitation-taroof is most often meant like they say. If they insist (and always make sure they insist) on inviting you, it is genuinely meant this way. There is no trap, no second meaning to it. My iranian wife, for example, is always prepared to receive some guests and there is no bad talking afterwards.

by lllllll 11y ago

geff82 11y ago

Well, ask anyone how they think Iranians are (as long as they know some in person) and almost always they will tell you something along the lines of "Wow, they are so extremely nice, so polite and generous". But this is, to some extend, a facade . The more you get to really know Iranians, you understand that they too can be really mean to others, have their fights, say bad things. They just do it in other, more indirect and complicated to understand ways. And Iran is a country 100% operating on Taarof so you need a lot of context to read the meaning of words. For example, once in Shiraz I was offered some icecream by friends of the family and I was like "Yes, sure!". Until this day, they laugh about it, because such directly accepting things is uncommon there (and while otherwise aware of the customs, the possibility of getting some icecream broke my barriers...). They think it's funny when Westeners are direct like that because they, too, watch TV and know our way of life. But if I had been Iranian, my reaction would have been unacceptable unpolite. Along the lines of taarof, many misunderstandings occur that can lead to bad blood in the end without anybody really wanting it in the first place. There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and never sorted out.

lllllll 11y ago
Thanks, the word 'facade' is what came to mind reading your reply. Here in Europe I've met several Iranians, though all happenned to have lived in Western countries for many years. I am sure in those cases they are genuinely nice people, so no facades involved. >> There is no room for criticism, so things are not talked about and never sorted out This resonates with traditional Catholic families too, where "elephants in the room" are not really addressed/dealt with many times. E.g. a daughter/granddaugter having a kid out of marriage etc.
- geff82 11y ago
  They ARE most probably genuinely nice people, especially in their European context. I could not have married an Iranian women if I was not sure if she and her family were genuinely nice (and they are in tons, I am incredibly proud on my Persian family here and in Iran). This nicety to you is most probably not made up, don't get my former comment wrong. And they are no fools, they know you are European and obey to other rules. But... you will not find out about the inner-Iranian conflicts that arise quite more often than I would have expected and they arise most often around the fine line of taarof. You never experience those calm conflicts as an outsider, you only see them from the inside (and I think I am in the position to say that I am on the inside). And those things are surprising me, especially the lack of conflict solving skills (example: in Europe/USA people tend to forgive you when you confess having made a mistake, in Iran they tend to condemn you so in the end you try to cover)
- geff82 11y ago
  A real world example for a taroof related conflict: "I think on my last visit she hasn't tried to convince me hard enough to stay overnight so I think I am not wanted" - 1 1/2 years siblings not talking any more. Other sign of taarof-related conflict (real world experience): When family meets, brother has, for some unknown reason, now always "important work" to do and can never attend, when before everything was right.
- lllllll 11y ago
  Ok I think the Persian people need a Post-Taroof Reformist League. Those unspoken Taroof-ish concerns seem like obstacles that complicate their daily lives (sigh). I command you to plant the reformist seed in their society :D
  - geff82 11y ago
    I try to :) In the form of really often expressing my explicit wish for their wonderful icecream :D :D
  - geff82 11y ago
    But you know...not everything is bad. Taarof makes actual travel to Iran rather smooth and comfortable as people really try to help you the best they can (as long as you have at least a small sense of what is too much, which you get fast).
user_0001 11y ago
"Wow, they are so extremely nice, so polite and generous" This is true. Spent 6 weeks driving from the Turkish border to Pakistani border a few years ago with the wife and then 2.5 yr old daughter Countless times we were invited into peoples homes, fed, all but force to stay the night and left with foods / sweets. Aware of the taroof system we refused as didn't want to burden them but even going passed the customary 3 refusals they still insisted. A few occasions we were offered money to help us on the way when they heard about our journey (around the world). This happened in cities / villages from the upper classes to just normal people. One particular instance comes to mind of camped on the outskirts of a small dirt road village near the Persian gulf. About 7.30 we were woken up by a banging on the van. On looking out the window, a small woman dressed head to toes in a chador (black cloak covering everything but the face) insisted we come to breakfast and shower. The wife was still sleeping so we politely declined. 30 minutes later she came back, more banging and insisted, confused why we hadn't come yet, we need to eat and have to shower. She all but grabbed the wife by the hand and dragged her to her house. She put on a mighty fine spread for breakfast. Took our daughter to show her to the neighbour, then took her to the shop to buy food for the lunch she would cook for us. She called her husband, got him to come back from work (he spoke a little English). Put the cable tv and got out a secret stash of homemade red wine and some whiskey. Am not really a big drinker and 8.30am is a bit early for wine and whiskey, but I think I only refused once. Our experience was repeated by all other overlanders we met who had passed through Iran.
- bklaasen 11y ago
  My wife and I spent three weeks in Iran, escaping Christmas 2008 (we're not religious and we don't have kids, so visiting countries where they don't do Christmas is a brilliant way to escape the madness). It was one of the most wonderful travel experiences we've had. Here's our story of getting Ta'arof wrong in a small country town in rural Gilan: http://threeweeksiniran.blogspot.ie/2009/03/ta-fail.html http://threeweeksiniran.blogspot.ie/2009/03/ta-fail.html
- geff82 11y ago
  Interestingly, this kind of invitation-taroof is most often meant like they say. If they insist (and always make sure they insist) on inviting you, it is genuinely meant this way. There is no trap, no second meaning to it. My iranian wife, for example, is always prepared to receive some guests and there is no bad talking afterwards.