4 ms·

Well, to give a german perspective, over here it is considered unfair. To such an extend that tuition is basically free. The thing is we do not think one should

by shakyor 11y ago

Well, to give a german perspective, over here it is considered unfair. To such an extend that tuition is basically free. The thing is we do not think one should indept himself to be able to achieve a degree, nor should he be forced to work to such an extend. I mean i admire you man, but looking carefully around you, you have got to admit that not everyone would be able to do this, would they? People over here got enraged when the goverment tried to introduce tuition fees of 1000 Euros a year. I actually think an economy profits if you make it easy for people to achieve an high education, and if you do not monitor them in the nature of the chosen field. And a society where you can do that and still have a normal and fullfilled life and being able to socially contribute to our society, that is the society i want to life in man. And while computer scientist are among the highest earner in germany, i gladly contribute my tax money to a society like this. I do however realize that cultures a different and another point of view is just as valid as mine. Just wanted to maybe offer another perspective :)

restalis 11y ago
I've explained this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9102059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9102059 - when you start considering the entire world as the marketplace for the fruits of education, this (taxpayer subsidized) model leaves you in a bad position.
- shakyor 11y ago
  Well, actually its working out fine atm, thank you :) There even was a article linked here about USA student coming to germany for education this week. It said that most of them stay. Turns out if you spend like 5 of your formative years at one place, you kind of build roots there. So maybe an attractive education system can actually help securing talent. There even was a statement by a german official which roughly said that they are very happy with the current state of affairs, having the international exchange. If things get too out of hand, tuition fees for foreign students will be explored as an option though.
  - restalis 11y ago
    "There even was a article linked here about USA student coming to germany for education this week. It said that most of them stay." So Germany invested by subsidizing some (foreign) students and manages to benefit from the fruits of its own education investment - this is hardly the context I was talking about. I was talking about the case where a country like Germany educates for free its own citizens then they leave for greener pastures. The fact that your government managed to sell you the idea that everything is all right because at least some of the subsidized students (foreign and German) will stay is relevant only to your subjective contentment level. The overall picture can be judged pretty objectively. "Turns out if you spend like 5 of your formative years at one place, you kind of build roots there." These kind of people would probably rooted anywhere, in any condition, as its just a thing in their nature, not something to present as a resulting advantage of a given system. Maybe a small part them came to Germany because of something unique that they couldn't possibly find anywhere else, but I think that most likely the majority came to Germany just because of the prohibitive education costs in their own country. That's to say someone else's education system has a problem (by being unattractive in the current conditions) and that secures you incoming talent now. Just expecting others to continue having problems is not a very solid plan to rely on. I believe that it's possible to design the system a little bit better, where the students that have access to subsidized education may come to feel the education debts only when they try to emigrate (and take away the results of that subsidized education) or some other kind of solution to the leakage of public investment.
    - shakyor 11y ago
      But thats exactly what I am saying. The cost for education in the US is prohibitve and so they decide to come to germany. If they find employment most people will stay where they got educated. However, i do not actually think that this the point. Education has always profited heavily from a diverse enviroment, so we do profit from people all over the world coming to us. Besides, not everything is about investment, sometimes a society just has to decide what it values. We also have a really expensive social system. I value this highly and love it when my tax money goes to efforts like this. I mean sure, at the end of the day i probably contribute more than i recieve money wise, but living in a society where i feel comfortable is pretty valuable to me :) Lasty, i think i can objectivly point out, that neither of us is very likely to make any objective statements without getting into heavy citations :)

by shakyor 11y ago

restalis 11y ago

I've explained this before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9102059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9102059 - when you start considering the entire world as the marketplace for the fruits of education, this (taxpayer subsidized) model leaves you in a bad position.

shakyor 11y ago
Well, actually its working out fine atm, thank you :) There even was a article linked here about USA student coming to germany for education this week. It said that most of them stay. Turns out if you spend like 5 of your formative years at one place, you kind of build roots there. So maybe an attractive education system can actually help securing talent. There even was a statement by a german official which roughly said that they are very happy with the current state of affairs, having the international exchange. If things get too out of hand, tuition fees for foreign students will be explored as an option though.
- restalis 11y ago
  "There even was a article linked here about USA student coming to germany for education this week. It said that most of them stay." So Germany invested by subsidizing some (foreign) students and manages to benefit from the fruits of its own education investment - this is hardly the context I was talking about. I was talking about the case where a country like Germany educates for free its own citizens then they leave for greener pastures. The fact that your government managed to sell you the idea that everything is all right because at least some of the subsidized students (foreign and German) will stay is relevant only to your subjective contentment level. The overall picture can be judged pretty objectively. "Turns out if you spend like 5 of your formative years at one place, you kind of build roots there." These kind of people would probably rooted anywhere, in any condition, as its just a thing in their nature, not something to present as a resulting advantage of a given system. Maybe a small part them came to Germany because of something unique that they couldn't possibly find anywhere else, but I think that most likely the majority came to Germany just because of the prohibitive education costs in their own country. That's to say someone else's education system has a problem (by being unattractive in the current conditions) and that secures you incoming talent now. Just expecting others to continue having problems is not a very solid plan to rely on. I believe that it's possible to design the system a little bit better, where the students that have access to subsidized education may come to feel the education debts only when they try to emigrate (and take away the results of that subsidized education) or some other kind of solution to the leakage of public investment.
  - shakyor 11y ago
    But thats exactly what I am saying. The cost for education in the US is prohibitve and so they decide to come to germany. If they find employment most people will stay where they got educated. However, i do not actually think that this the point. Education has always profited heavily from a diverse enviroment, so we do profit from people all over the world coming to us. Besides, not everything is about investment, sometimes a society just has to decide what it values. We also have a really expensive social system. I value this highly and love it when my tax money goes to efforts like this. I mean sure, at the end of the day i probably contribute more than i recieve money wise, but living in a society where i feel comfortable is pretty valuable to me :) Lasty, i think i can objectivly point out, that neither of us is very likely to make any objective statements without getting into heavy citations :)