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> Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Yeah? I could type a URL to anything here, and you c

> Native mobile is "winning", in terms of being usually a far superior UX, and by sheer numerical demand. Yeah? I could type a URL to anything here, and you could view it. If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower. You need space on your mobile device to install my app. Potentially a password entered to install it. It needs to be compatible with your device. You need to approve my permissions. The content of my app isn't searched in any search engine. You can't bookmark where you were. I'm not at all convinced that native mobile has "far superior UX." Sure, aspects of it, no question. And sheer numerical demand? Again, I'm not so sure. Actually, I'm quite sure you're wrong.

parasubvert 11y ago
I am a huge proponent of the web architecture, I just think HTML is dying from the politicization of the standards process and resulting slow pace of innovation. "If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. " This is not true. I enter a URL into my iPhone's Safari, it deep links into the App associated with the domain. We just watched a WWDC keynote that showed plenty of deep linking between apps, from Siri, etc. "The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower..." This is also contrary to the data - people love apps, download and use apps like mad. Over $100 billion in revenue is expected to be from mobile apps this year. That's bigger than Hollywood box office 3x, bigger than book publishing 10x, bigger than PC software. The only thing it doesn't eclipse is packaged/server software yet. Installing and using apps is demonstrating to be less effort than using the web on a mobile device: I have to do it once, vs. have to deal with a slow web browser every time I use the website. This isn't to say people don't use the web on their phones, it's that if an app is available, people will pick the app. "Potentially a password entered to install it... You need to approve my permissions" Same on any website I have to sign up with via form or OAuth2. And if an app has in-app purchases, I do none of that (just sign in on the store or use my thumbprint). "The content of my app isn't searched in any search engine. You can't bookmark where you were." That's interesting, most of the apps I use are searchable in the app, or on the Web. That doesn't mean I'm using a web browser to do most of the interactions. Again, I don't think the Web is going away, just that HTML is becoming the new command prompt. That might change if something awesome comes out via open hypermedia. Doesn't look like it though... given how rich experiences are getting and how political the HTML standards process is. "And sheer numerical demand? Again, I'm not so sure. Actually, I'm quite sure you're wrong." By what measure? I mean, I don't claim infallibility here, I'm just saying that (a) mobile smartphones are quickly becoming the most common device on the planet, more common than a toothbrush, car, or toilet, (b) all of these support apps, (c) almost every company with a service or content has an app, (d) almost every user will prefer an app over over an website, and (e) thus almost all the money spent on consumer software is moving to native mobile. I'm following the money and the usage figures..
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  > We just watched a WWDC keynote that showed plenty of deep linking between apps, from Siri, etc. True, apps are beginning to figure this out. But in general, I can easily share a link to any web page. Sharing a deep link into some content in some app is nowhere near a "solved problem." > This is also contrary to the data - people love apps, download and use apps like mad. Really? If I share a link to a CNN or HN article, you're less likely to view that? I don't think you're remotely correct. It depends on the kinds of content, I guess. I'm just saying there are cases where web wins huge. > Same on any website I have to sign up with via form or OAuth2. Yes, each of us is inventing situations where the other is wrong. But I think you agree with my fundamental premise there are times when the web utterly destroys apps. > I'm following the money and the usage figures. I'm sitting here typing to you on ycombinator.com. After spending time on reddit.com. facebook.com. plus.google.com. cnn.com. Yup, there are apps versions of those, but I sit at my desk for 8-10 hours a day, and my desktop experience is WAY better than my mobile experience... I'm not saying web is better, I'm saying web is better at some things, still.
  - parasubvert 11y ago
    "Really? If I share a link to a CNN or HN article, you're less likely to view that? I don't think you're remotely correct. It depends on the kinds of content, I guess. I'm just saying there are cases where web wins huge." I didn't say I would be less likely to view the link if t was a website, nor would most people avoid it. The web architecture (linking) is alive and well. I'm saying that many websites have an app link at the top of their content once I click it and if I found myself visiting that site often i would click "Get" and grab it. Then future links would not open my browser, they'd open the app. "I'm sitting here typing to you on ycombinator.com. After spending time on reddit.com. facebook.com. plus.google.com. cnn.com." Right - my habit for many years as well. But IME most people use app versions of those sites on a mobile device (except HN - and the UX suffers for it) "Yup, there are apps versions of those, but I sit at my desk for 8-10 hours a day, and my desktop experience is WAY better than my mobile experience..." Here we fundamentally disagree. The mobile experience FAR exceeds the desktop experience for most casual computing tasks. I use my phone and iPad way more than my laptop for reading and replying; I use my laptop more for coding and system administration.
rimantas 11y ago
Why would I prefer to type a URL? I can just as easily get an URL for the app in ap store and have it right there. Having app stored on my device is an advantage, unless you like your web apps download in full even on crappy mobile connection. And you really want the content of your app indexed by external search engine? I like being able to control the permissions my app has. Or does your web app not ask for the permission to use your location, camera, microphone? I don't need to bookmark where I were in the app: I open it and I am there at once.
- pmontra 11y ago
  You don't want to type URLs, especially on mobile, but the fact that all the items on the home page of HN are links to web pages and not to screens inside apps should hint to a definitive advantage of the web over apps. And to why having a web site is mandatory and having an app is optional. If the web and apps where in the same competition I'd say the Web can't lose, but I don't believe they compete. They serve different purposes with some overlaps (think Google Docs, the web site and the apps).
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  > Why would I prefer to type a URL? You can just click on URLs if I type them. Maybe if you go to your local library, someone can give you a demonstration of how the internet works. > I can just as easily get an URL for the app in ap store and have it right there. You're ignoring the deep-linking I'm talking about. Not just the app (like cnn.com), but to actual CONTENT on it, like some specific story. > Having app stored on my device is an advantage, unless you like your web apps download in full even on crappy mobile connection. Web Apps can store most of their content in your browser, now. So additional views are not downloading the full app. > And you really want the content of your app indexed by external search engine? Yeah, I really want content I produced to be indexed by search engines, so users can actually find it. Not 100% of the time, sure, but I'm in control of that. Explain to me how I can possibly get a search engine to index my content if it IS in an app? > I don't need to bookmark where I were in the app: I open it and I am there at once. If you want multiple bookmarks, then no, what you're saying isn't remotely true. If you want to share a bookmark, no, this isn't possible. Or are you just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative?
72deluxe 11y ago
It depends what the app is for. If it's for viewing content over HTTP then yes a native app probably is a dumb idea (unless the platform has wildly different browser capabilities, like on Android - you never know what you're going to get so have to write a dumb website). However, if the app is for something useful (and not just a content viewer) then native is far superior.
sinnet11 11y ago
Lets say I'm searching for a house. If I go to redfin.com on my phone vs the native redfin app, there is a distinct difference in UX. The native app by far surpasses the mobile app in terms of performance and usability. Now this is one example but can be said for many sites whose functionality isn't just to display static content.
- VikingCoder 11y ago
  I feel like people are ignoring my fundamental point - There are things the web can do that native currently sucks at. Sometimes those things are really important to me. I'm not saying web is always better than native. Far from it. But I am saying web is sometimes way better than native. Even on mobile.

parasubvert 11y ago

I am a huge proponent of the web architecture, I just think HTML is dying from the politicization of the standards process and resulting slow pace of innovation. "If instead hide my content behind an app, I can't deep link to it. " This is not true. I enter a URL into my iPhone's Safari, it deep links into the App associated with the domain. We just watched a WWDC keynote that showed plenty of deep linking between apps, from Siri, etc. "The likelihood of you installing the app to see the content is way lower..." This is also contrary to the data - people love apps, download and use apps like mad. Over $100 billion in revenue is expected to be from mobile apps this year. That's bigger than Hollywood box office 3x, bigger than book publishing 10x, bigger than PC software. The only thing it doesn't eclipse is packaged/server software yet. Installing and using apps is demonstrating to be less effort than using the web on a mobile device: I have to do it once, vs. have to deal with a slow web browser every time I use the website. This isn't to say people don't use the web on their phones, it's that if an app is available, people will pick the app. "Potentially a password entered to install it... You need to approve my permissions" Same on any website I have to sign up with via form or OAuth2. And if an app has in-app purchases, I do none of that (just sign in on the store or use my thumbprint). "The content of my app isn't searched in any search engine. You can't bookmark where you were." That's interesting, most of the apps I use are searchable in the app, or on the Web. That doesn't mean I'm using a web browser to do most of the interactions. Again, I don't think the Web is going away, just that HTML is becoming the new command prompt. That might change if something awesome comes out via open hypermedia. Doesn't look like it though... given how rich experiences are getting and how political the HTML standards process is. "And sheer numerical demand? Again, I'm not so sure. Actually, I'm quite sure you're wrong." By what measure? I mean, I don't claim infallibility here, I'm just saying that (a) mobile smartphones are quickly becoming the most common device on the planet, more common than a toothbrush, car, or toilet, (b) all of these support apps, (c) almost every company with a service or content has an app, (d) almost every user will prefer an app over over an website, and (e) thus almost all the money spent on consumer software is moving to native mobile. I'm following the money and the usage figures..

VikingCoder 11y ago
> We just watched a WWDC keynote that showed plenty of deep linking between apps, from Siri, etc. True, apps are beginning to figure this out. But in general, I can easily share a link to any web page. Sharing a deep link into some content in some app is nowhere near a "solved problem." > This is also contrary to the data - people love apps, download and use apps like mad. Really? If I share a link to a CNN or HN article, you're less likely to view that? I don't think you're remotely correct. It depends on the kinds of content, I guess. I'm just saying there are cases where web wins huge. > Same on any website I have to sign up with via form or OAuth2. Yes, each of us is inventing situations where the other is wrong. But I think you agree with my fundamental premise there are times when the web utterly destroys apps. > I'm following the money and the usage figures. I'm sitting here typing to you on ycombinator.com. After spending time on reddit.com. facebook.com. plus.google.com. cnn.com. Yup, there are apps versions of those, but I sit at my desk for 8-10 hours a day, and my desktop experience is WAY better than my mobile experience... I'm not saying web is better, I'm saying web is better at some things, still.
- parasubvert 11y ago
  "Really? If I share a link to a CNN or HN article, you're less likely to view that? I don't think you're remotely correct. It depends on the kinds of content, I guess. I'm just saying there are cases where web wins huge." I didn't say I would be less likely to view the link if t was a website, nor would most people avoid it. The web architecture (linking) is alive and well. I'm saying that many websites have an app link at the top of their content once I click it and if I found myself visiting that site often i would click "Get" and grab it. Then future links would not open my browser, they'd open the app. "I'm sitting here typing to you on ycombinator.com. After spending time on reddit.com. facebook.com. plus.google.com. cnn.com." Right - my habit for many years as well. But IME most people use app versions of those sites on a mobile device (except HN - and the UX suffers for it) "Yup, there are apps versions of those, but I sit at my desk for 8-10 hours a day, and my desktop experience is WAY better than my mobile experience..." Here we fundamentally disagree. The mobile experience FAR exceeds the desktop experience for most casual computing tasks. I use my phone and iPad way more than my laptop for reading and replying; I use my laptop more for coding and system administration.

rimantas 11y ago

Why would I prefer to type a URL? I can just as easily get an URL for the app in ap store and have it right there. Having app stored on my device is an advantage, unless you like your web apps download in full even on crappy mobile connection. And you really want the content of your app indexed by external search engine? I like being able to control the permissions my app has. Or does your web app not ask for the permission to use your location, camera, microphone? I don't need to bookmark where I were in the app: I open it and I am there at once.

pmontra 11y ago
You don't want to type URLs, especially on mobile, but the fact that all the items on the home page of HN are links to web pages and not to screens inside apps should hint to a definitive advantage of the web over apps. And to why having a web site is mandatory and having an app is optional. If the web and apps where in the same competition I'd say the Web can't lose, but I don't believe they compete. They serve different purposes with some overlaps (think Google Docs, the web site and the apps).
VikingCoder 11y ago
> Why would I prefer to type a URL? You can just click on URLs if I type them. Maybe if you go to your local library, someone can give you a demonstration of how the internet works. > I can just as easily get an URL for the app in ap store and have it right there. You're ignoring the deep-linking I'm talking about. Not just the app (like cnn.com), but to actual CONTENT on it, like some specific story. > Having app stored on my device is an advantage, unless you like your web apps download in full even on crappy mobile connection. Web Apps can store most of their content in your browser, now. So additional views are not downloading the full app. > And you really want the content of your app indexed by external search engine? Yeah, I really want content I produced to be indexed by search engines, so users can actually find it. Not 100% of the time, sure, but I'm in control of that. Explain to me how I can possibly get a search engine to index my content if it IS in an app? > I don't need to bookmark where I were in the app: I open it and I am there at once. If you want multiple bookmarks, then no, what you're saying isn't remotely true. If you want to share a bookmark, no, this isn't possible. Or are you just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative?

72deluxe 11y ago

It depends what the app is for. If it's for viewing content over HTTP then yes a native app probably is a dumb idea (unless the platform has wildly different browser capabilities, like on Android - you never know what you're going to get so have to write a dumb website). However, if the app is for something useful (and not just a content viewer) then native is far superior.

sinnet11 11y ago

Lets say I'm searching for a house. If I go to redfin.com on my phone vs the native redfin app, there is a distinct difference in UX. The native app by far surpasses the mobile app in terms of performance and usability. Now this is one example but can be said for many sites whose functionality isn't just to display static content.

VikingCoder 11y ago
I feel like people are ignoring my fundamental point - There are things the web can do that native currently sucks at. Sometimes those things are really important to me. I'm not saying web is always better than native. Far from it. But I am saying web is sometimes way better than native. Even on mobile.