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> Each monad indicates one particular kind of interaction, such as using memory or perform input-output. NO NO NO. Stop. It was cute when people got this wrong

> Each monad indicates one particular kind of interaction, such as using memory or perform input-output. NO NO NO. Stop. It was cute when people got this wrong in 2010; now it's just ignorant to pretend to know enough about Haskell to tell us something about it and still get this so wrong. There is no inherent connection between monads and statefulness; none whatsoever. Monads just happened to be a useful abstraction to make opaque for the purposes of IO.

cousin_it 11y ago
People keep getting it wrong because monads are the wrong abstraction. The right abstraction is algebraic effects. They correspond much more directly to "interactions", because the types of effect handlers are exactly the types of allowed "interactions". As a bonus, algebraic effects commute with each other, while monads usually don't. (For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a), and people who want to program with effects shouldn't have to think about such differences.) There was a great quote saying that when you get something almost right but not completely right, you have to explain it to people over and over again. IMO people should pay more attention to that quote, it applies to monads perfectly.
- danghica 11y ago
  I agree with monads, not so sure about algebraic effects. Having to define the effect feels like "simulation" to me. It's OK for a meta-language, but to me it feels wrong for actual effectful programming.
  - cousin_it 11y ago
    Can you explain your wish in more detail? I feel like you might have a point, but I'm having trouble verbalizing it for myself :-(
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a) In what sense is the difference "gratuitous"? Seems to me its a pretty significant, meaningful difference and that the two types represent radically different things.
  - cousin_it 11y ago
    Yes, I agree. But that difference is irrelevant and distracting to people who just want to do effectful programming. A computation that's allowed to call handlers A and B should be always convertable to a computation that can call handlers B and A. There's no point in using a more general abstraction (monads) that doesn't give you the operations you need.
    - dllthomas 11y ago
      This is handwavy and wrong. Imagine we have two effects that need handling. One is "failure" - terminating the computation and propagating the fact of failure. The other is "emit", producing some value for an external process. If I combine these two, the question arises as to the behavior of "emit 3; fail" - does it emit or bury the 3? Depending on the circumstance, either could be useful, and it's a tremendous difference that is neither irrelevant nor distracting.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - cousin_it 11y ago
        If I understand algebraic effects correctly, the computation "emit 3; fail" might emit or bury the 3 (or do something even more strange) depending on which effect handlers you pass to it. Keeping effect handlers outside of computations is what allows for commutativity etc.
        dllthomas 11y ago
        I am not objecting to algebraic effects; I am objecting to your calling the different orderings "irrelevant and distracting." It is a vitally important detail that can easily make the difference between correct and broken code. When a code snippet can be written making no assumptions about ordering, exposing it as polymorphic with respect to ordering is great. When it must rely on a particular ordering, pretending it doesn't will bite you.
- Dewie3 11y ago
  Do you know of any introduction to algebraic effects that is more programming-focused than theoretical?
  - cousin_it 11y ago
    Here's one: http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-ii-introducing-eff/ http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-i...

cousin_it 11y ago

People keep getting it wrong because monads are the wrong abstraction. The right abstraction is algebraic effects. They correspond much more directly to "interactions", because the types of effect handlers are exactly the types of allowed "interactions". As a bonus, algebraic effects commute with each other, while monads usually don't. (For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a), and people who want to program with effects shouldn't have to think about such differences.) There was a great quote saying that when you get something almost right but not completely right, you have to explain it to people over and over again. IMO people should pay more attention to that quote, it applies to monads perfectly.

danghica 11y ago
I agree with monads, not so sure about algebraic effects. Having to define the effect feels like "simulation" to me. It's OK for a meta-language, but to me it feels wrong for actual effectful programming.
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Can you explain your wish in more detail? I feel like you might have a point, but I'm having trouble verbalizing it for myself :-(
dragonwriter 11y ago
> For example, there's a gratuitous difference between Maybe (List a) and List (Maybe a) In what sense is the difference "gratuitous"? Seems to me its a pretty significant, meaningful difference and that the two types represent radically different things.
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Yes, I agree. But that difference is irrelevant and distracting to people who just want to do effectful programming. A computation that's allowed to call handlers A and B should be always convertable to a computation that can call handlers B and A. There's no point in using a more general abstraction (monads) that doesn't give you the operations you need.
  - dllthomas 11y ago
    This is handwavy and wrong. Imagine we have two effects that need handling. One is "failure" - terminating the computation and propagating the fact of failure. The other is "emit", producing some value for an external process. If I combine these two, the question arises as to the behavior of "emit 3; fail" - does it emit or bury the 3? Depending on the circumstance, either could be useful, and it's a tremendous difference that is neither irrelevant nor distracting.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - cousin_it 11y ago
      If I understand algebraic effects correctly, the computation "emit 3; fail" might emit or bury the 3 (or do something even more strange) depending on which effect handlers you pass to it. Keeping effect handlers outside of computations is what allows for commutativity etc.
      - dllthomas 11y ago
        I am not objecting to algebraic effects; I am objecting to your calling the different orderings "irrelevant and distracting." It is a vitally important detail that can easily make the difference between correct and broken code. When a code snippet can be written making no assumptions about ordering, exposing it as polymorphic with respect to ordering is great. When it must rely on a particular ordering, pretending it doesn't will bite you.
Dewie3 11y ago
Do you know of any introduction to algebraic effects that is more programming-focused than theoretical?
- cousin_it 11y ago
  Here's one: http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-ii-introducing-eff/ http://math.andrej.com/2010/09/27/programming-with-effects-i...