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> Live streaming video requires Safari 6.0.5 or later on OS X v10.8.5 or later; Safari on iOS 6.0 or later. Streaming via Apple TV requires second- or third-gen

by notsony 11y ago

> Live streaming video requires Safari 6.0.5 or later on OS X v10.8.5 or later; Safari on iOS 6.0 or later. Streaming via Apple TV requires second- or third-generation Apple TV with software 6.2 or later. Apple continues to refuse acknowledgment of the existence of a heterogeneous computing environment. Many people who do not have access to an Apple computer will not be able to watch the stream. Contrast with Google who stream their keynote on YouTube. So rather than being inclusive, the company is being exclusive. Yet Tim Cook, with regards to diversity of employees, believes "It's the future of our company... I think the most diverse group will produce the best product, I firmly believe that."[1] Does Tim Cook not see the irony of his posturing? How can he produce the best products if he and his employees are hired to reject the reality of the technology world around them and enforce isolation rather than encourage interoperability? [1] http://mashable.com/2015/06/08/tim-cook-apple-diversity-women-future/ http://mashable.com/2015/06/08/tim-cook-apple-diversity-wome...

Navarr 11y ago
Yeah this is depressing. I'm very interested in what Apple is doing, but I don't want it to be my driver. I choose Windows and Android for various reasons (that I refuse to get into an argument here about), and so I'm completely unable to watch Apple's Keynote? Ridiculous.
- MCRed 11y ago
  You're able to watch it- just come back this after noon when the quicktime stream is posted. You're just not able to watch it live. By definition, since you only have windows and android devices you're not an Apple developer, and not the target of WWDC. Further, the technical reason behind this could be rectified by Google and Microsoft if they gave up their NIH stance regarding dynamic web video.
  - Navarr 11y ago
    > not the target of WWDC Someone that needs to come up with solutions that work across various operating systems, including iOS isn't a target of the developer conference? Just because I don't personally own any Apple devices does not mean I don't ever do any Apple dev.
    - kalleboo 11y ago
      How can you do Apple dev without a device to test on?
      - Jtsummers 11y ago
        Having a device to test on doesn't mean having a device to watch videos on. It could be in use for, you know, testing. Or it could be shared with other devs.
      - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
        I'd rather watch on the PC that's plugged into my TV anyway and that's a Windows 8 box.
  - dman 11y ago
    What about people who contribute to clang / llvm using linux as their primary platform?
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    Elsewhere in the thread [1], when someone did post the url to the livestream for people to view on non-apple devices, you said: This will give you a static stream, which means if your bandwidth dips or the demand spikes you may have problems. So don't complain if you have problems with it. so, there seem to be technical issues with this "open" specification, that seems to be a hack atop m3us, if it requires a non-trivial amount of coding for it not behave like a 1998 copy of realplayer. Perhaps apple's spec is just crap. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9680220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9680220
- ishansharma 11y ago
  You can watch the keynote. There's a stream address in source that you can copy to VLC on any platform.
k-mcgrady 11y ago
Considering it's a developer conference and Apple developers must have Apple hardware it makes sense as a way to let the people who need in in but not have to pay for the infrastructure required for everyone else to view. It would be nice if they opened it to everyone but considering they're not in the video streaming business in the way Google is it would be a waste of resources.
- Navarr 11y ago
  Yeah, I mean - it's not like YouTube's Live Streaming platform is open to everyone.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
MCRed 11y ago
Apple released an open protocol for dynamically scalable streaming that anyone could adopt. It is only with this protocol and the resulting increase in efficiency that they can deliver such a popular event at such volume. The number of people tuning in for WWDC is probably an order of magnitude more significant than Google io. The choice is for technical reasons... if Google and others had embraced the technology, then Apple could stream to them. Instead google and others have a Not Invented Here syndrome. Hell, Chrome which built its popularity on the back of Apple's open source Webkit (yeah yeah, webkit was built on top of an earlier open source framework, nothing wrong with open source) has instead decided to go its own way and forked things. It's kinda silly to bash Apple like that. Plus, remember the audience. This is a conference for Apple developers. If you're an Apple developer, surely you have an iPhone or iPad. How else do you test? And if not, you can always watch the Quicktime / MP4 stream later.
- heartbreak 11y ago
  > How else do you test? More like: How else do you compile?
  - nailer 11y ago
    Pretty sure xcode cross compiles.
ghshephard 11y ago
Apple is in the business of selling Apple hardware. Google is in the business of selling services across all hardware. I don't find it surprising in the least that Apple requires you have an Apple device to watch their developer keynote.
- wanda 11y ago
  Yes but when Microsoft pulls this kind of crap, they're demons. Apple is justified because what, they have prettier laptops for landing pages?
  - r00fus 11y ago
    Microsoft is a convicted coercive monopolist. Apple is not. Does that clarify it for you?
    - sirkneeland 11y ago
      Hm. While that's absolutely true, it probably seemed like more of a good zinger in 2000 than it does in 2015.
      - ghshephard 11y ago
        Some of us have long memories. Microsoft's ambitions for the longest time were to kill everyone else, not just be successful, but destroy everyone. Say what you will about Apple, but they appear to be content to remain a niche player, focussing only on the top of the market, and don't seem to have any inherent need to wipe out open standards and destroying all their competitors.
higherpurpose 11y ago
Indeed. This is infuriating. Apple should make it easier for me, a non-customer, to see the promotion of their products - not harder. With Apple it's basically: "if you're already in our ecosystem we love you. If you're not, we hate you". Well, screw you, too, Apple!. I'll happily continue to live outside of your ecosystem then.
- mitchty 11y ago
  Just use vlc. Apples "streaming" is just 10 second chunks of video shunted across a m3u playlist. Its not exactly proprietary in that regard. Also its a developer conference, what are you hoping to see in the live stream that makes you absolutely need to watch it or just abandon using apple products all together? Honestly I can't tell if this is a joke or not anymore on the internet. But I generally don't go into the google dev threads and just gripe about google, ditto microsoft. Why the hell do we get this much uninformed junk comments on apple threads? Its getting to the point that I think most "social site junk" is really not worth the bother with all the same boring never going to change comments every time.
melling 11y ago
Not to defend Apple, but Google owns YouTube so it's not a stretch for Google to use YouTube. Not sure why Apple doesn't target a larger audience. It's free publicity.
masklinn 11y ago
> Many people who do not have access to an Apple computer will not be able to watch the stream. Which they can if they find the stream address and put it in VLC. It's just HTTP live streaming[0], has been for a few years now. Recent Android device ought be able to understand it as well. > Contrast with Google who stream their keynote on YouTube. So rather than being inclusive, the company is being exclusive. Ah yes, the inclusivity of Google putting livestreams on their property, contrasted with the exclusivity of Apple putting livestreams on their property. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Live_Streaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Live_Streaming little more than a bunch of video snippets (TS files) linked by a streamed m3u8.
- seiji 11y ago
  Google live streams using Flash and doesn't support the open standard HTTP Live Streaming spec. So, it's really a bit weird. Apple is more open in this case, but not many things support the open standard (specifically: Chrome).
  - skrowl 11y ago
    The Google I/O livestream via YouTube worked just fine in HTML5 for me. Last year too.
    - seiji 11y ago
      Oh, odd. Are you manually opted into the "HTML5 YouTube" version (is that still even an option or just the default for everybody now)? I had to manually "click to enable Flash plugin" to watch their I/O stream a few weeks ago in Chrome. And, last I checked, Chrome doesn't support HTTP Live Streaming, so if you are using Chrome and getting live video without a pulgin, I'm not sure how it works? Extra note: Chrome on Android does support, but Chrome-the-desktop-browser does not support HTTP Live Streaming. Computers are awful.
      - masklinn 11y ago
        Javascript implementing MPEG-DASH: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109652#c2 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109652#c...
matthewmacleod 11y ago
Apple use HTTP Live Streaming (HLS) to broadcast live events. This is an entirely open standard. Indeed, it's super-simple to implement and use. AFAIK they submitted it as an Internet Draft, but I'm not sure it's gone anywhere. HTTP Live Streaming is supported by more than just Apple devices – it'll work with recent Android devices too, and with VLC / other media players. I wouldn't expect Apple to certify the compatibility of the stream with other devices – sure, it might work, but would you expect them to explain the full gamut of software which might potentially be able to view the stream? People get awfully worked up about this sort of thing without taking a small step back and thinking about it for a minute. This is not a horrible "let's ignore non-Apple users" conspiracy. It's just explaining the system requirements that Apple is targeting to the expected audience – basically all of whom will be using an Apple device.
- hayksaakian 11y ago
  Taken from a phone with 100% support for HLS http://www.imgur.com/VvAhSEF.png http://www.imgur.com/VvAhSEF.png
  - matthewmacleod 11y ago
    Here you go: http://p.events-delivery.apple.com.edgesuite.net/15pijbnaefvpoijbaefvpihb06/m3u8/hls_mvp.m3u8 http://p.events-delivery.apple.com.edgesuite.net/15pijbnaefv... Since I imagine it's difficult to determine which devices support HLS in-browser, I guess they don't show the video.
    - fenomas 11y ago
      It's trivially easy to detect in-browser (with mediaElement.canPlayType()). Modernizr detects HLS support out of the box.
      - serge2k 11y ago
        uh huh. and then you try to fullscreen on android and it breaks because android.
thom 11y ago
I too am disgusted that Tim Cook's appreciation of social justice is not so intersectional as to include web browsers.
flinty 11y ago
Inclusivity when it fits their narrative.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
fenomas 11y ago
Hardware/OS aside, it's amazing to see a high-profile webpage in 2015 merrily proclaiming itself to only work in only one browser. It's even more amazing to see some replies on HN defending it.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by notsony 11y ago

Navarr 11y ago

Yeah this is depressing. I'm very interested in what Apple is doing, but I don't want it to be my driver. I choose Windows and Android for various reasons (that I refuse to get into an argument here about), and so I'm completely unable to watch Apple's Keynote? Ridiculous.

MCRed 11y ago
You're able to watch it- just come back this after noon when the quicktime stream is posted. You're just not able to watch it live. By definition, since you only have windows and android devices you're not an Apple developer, and not the target of WWDC. Further, the technical reason behind this could be rectified by Google and Microsoft if they gave up their NIH stance regarding dynamic web video.
- Navarr 11y ago
  > not the target of WWDC Someone that needs to come up with solutions that work across various operating systems, including iOS isn't a target of the developer conference? Just because I don't personally own any Apple devices does not mean I don't ever do any Apple dev.
  - kalleboo 11y ago
    How can you do Apple dev without a device to test on?
    - Jtsummers 11y ago
      Having a device to test on doesn't mean having a device to watch videos on. It could be in use for, you know, testing. Or it could be shared with other devs.
    - WorldWideWayne 11y ago
      I'd rather watch on the PC that's plugged into my TV anyway and that's a Windows 8 box.
- dman 11y ago
  What about people who contribute to clang / llvm using linux as their primary platform?
- Sanddancer 11y ago
  Elsewhere in the thread [1], when someone did post the url to the livestream for people to view on non-apple devices, you said: This will give you a static stream, which means if your bandwidth dips or the demand spikes you may have problems. So don't complain if you have problems with it. so, there seem to be technical issues with this "open" specification, that seems to be a hack atop m3us, if it requires a non-trivial amount of coding for it not behave like a 1998 copy of realplayer. Perhaps apple's spec is just crap. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9680220 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9680220
ishansharma 11y ago
You can watch the keynote. There's a stream address in source that you can copy to VLC on any platform.

k-mcgrady 11y ago

Considering it's a developer conference and Apple developers must have Apple hardware it makes sense as a way to let the people who need in in but not have to pay for the infrastructure required for everyone else to view. It would be nice if they opened it to everyone but considering they're not in the video streaming business in the way Google is it would be a waste of resources.

Navarr 11y ago
Yeah, I mean - it's not like YouTube's Live Streaming platform is open to everyone.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

MCRed 11y ago

Apple released an open protocol for dynamically scalable streaming that anyone could adopt. It is only with this protocol and the resulting increase in efficiency that they can deliver such a popular event at such volume. The number of people tuning in for WWDC is probably an order of magnitude more significant than Google io. The choice is for technical reasons... if Google and others had embraced the technology, then Apple could stream to them. Instead google and others have a Not Invented Here syndrome. Hell, Chrome which built its popularity on the back of Apple's open source Webkit (yeah yeah, webkit was built on top of an earlier open source framework, nothing wrong with open source) has instead decided to go its own way and forked things. It's kinda silly to bash Apple like that. Plus, remember the audience. This is a conference for Apple developers. If you're an Apple developer, surely you have an iPhone or iPad. How else do you test? And if not, you can always watch the Quicktime / MP4 stream later.

heartbreak 11y ago
> How else do you test? More like: How else do you compile?
- nailer 11y ago
  Pretty sure xcode cross compiles.

ghshephard 11y ago

Apple is in the business of selling Apple hardware. Google is in the business of selling services across all hardware. I don't find it surprising in the least that Apple requires you have an Apple device to watch their developer keynote.

wanda 11y ago
Yes but when Microsoft pulls this kind of crap, they're demons. Apple is justified because what, they have prettier laptops for landing pages?
- r00fus 11y ago
  Microsoft is a convicted coercive monopolist. Apple is not. Does that clarify it for you?
  - sirkneeland 11y ago
    Hm. While that's absolutely true, it probably seemed like more of a good zinger in 2000 than it does in 2015.
    - ghshephard 11y ago
      Some of us have long memories. Microsoft's ambitions for the longest time were to kill everyone else, not just be successful, but destroy everyone. Say what you will about Apple, but they appear to be content to remain a niche player, focussing only on the top of the market, and don't seem to have any inherent need to wipe out open standards and destroying all their competitors.

higherpurpose 11y ago

Indeed. This is infuriating. Apple should make it easier for me, a non-customer, to see the promotion of their products - not harder. With Apple it's basically: "if you're already in our ecosystem we love you. If you're not, we hate you". Well, screw you, too, Apple!. I'll happily continue to live outside of your ecosystem then.

mitchty 11y ago
Just use vlc. Apples "streaming" is just 10 second chunks of video shunted across a m3u playlist. Its not exactly proprietary in that regard. Also its a developer conference, what are you hoping to see in the live stream that makes you absolutely need to watch it or just abandon using apple products all together? Honestly I can't tell if this is a joke or not anymore on the internet. But I generally don't go into the google dev threads and just gripe about google, ditto microsoft. Why the hell do we get this much uninformed junk comments on apple threads? Its getting to the point that I think most "social site junk" is really not worth the bother with all the same boring never going to change comments every time.

melling 11y ago

Not to defend Apple, but Google owns YouTube so it's not a stretch for Google to use YouTube. Not sure why Apple doesn't target a larger audience. It's free publicity.

masklinn 11y ago

> Many people who do not have access to an Apple computer will not be able to watch the stream. Which they can if they find the stream address and put it in VLC. It's just HTTP live streaming[0], has been for a few years now. Recent Android device ought be able to understand it as well. > Contrast with Google who stream their keynote on YouTube. So rather than being inclusive, the company is being exclusive. Ah yes, the inclusivity of Google putting livestreams on their property, contrasted with the exclusivity of Apple putting livestreams on their property. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Live_Streaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_Live_Streaming little more than a bunch of video snippets (TS files) linked by a streamed m3u8.

seiji 11y ago
Google live streams using Flash and doesn't support the open standard HTTP Live Streaming spec. So, it's really a bit weird. Apple is more open in this case, but not many things support the open standard (specifically: Chrome).
- skrowl 11y ago
  The Google I/O livestream via YouTube worked just fine in HTML5 for me. Last year too.
  - seiji 11y ago
    Oh, odd. Are you manually opted into the "HTML5 YouTube" version (is that still even an option or just the default for everybody now)? I had to manually "click to enable Flash plugin" to watch their I/O stream a few weeks ago in Chrome. And, last I checked, Chrome doesn't support HTTP Live Streaming, so if you are using Chrome and getting live video without a pulgin, I'm not sure how it works? Extra note: Chrome on Android does support, but Chrome-the-desktop-browser does not support HTTP Live Streaming. Computers are awful.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      Javascript implementing MPEG-DASH: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109652#c2 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=109652#c...

matthewmacleod 11y ago

Apple use HTTP Live Streaming (HLS) to broadcast live events. This is an entirely open standard. Indeed, it's super-simple to implement and use. AFAIK they submitted it as an Internet Draft, but I'm not sure it's gone anywhere. HTTP Live Streaming is supported by more than just Apple devices – it'll work with recent Android devices too, and with VLC / other media players. I wouldn't expect Apple to certify the compatibility of the stream with other devices – sure, it might work, but would you expect them to explain the full gamut of software which might potentially be able to view the stream? People get awfully worked up about this sort of thing without taking a small step back and thinking about it for a minute. This is not a horrible "let's ignore non-Apple users" conspiracy. It's just explaining the system requirements that Apple is targeting to the expected audience – basically all of whom will be using an Apple device.

hayksaakian 11y ago
Taken from a phone with 100% support for HLS http://www.imgur.com/VvAhSEF.png http://www.imgur.com/VvAhSEF.png
- matthewmacleod 11y ago
  Here you go: http://p.events-delivery.apple.com.edgesuite.net/15pijbnaefvpoijbaefvpihb06/m3u8/hls_mvp.m3u8 http://p.events-delivery.apple.com.edgesuite.net/15pijbnaefv... Since I imagine it's difficult to determine which devices support HLS in-browser, I guess they don't show the video.
  - fenomas 11y ago
    It's trivially easy to detect in-browser (with mediaElement.canPlayType()). Modernizr detects HLS support out of the box.
    - serge2k 11y ago
      uh huh. and then you try to fullscreen on android and it breaks because android.

thom 11y ago

I too am disgusted that Tim Cook's appreciation of social justice is not so intersectional as to include web browsers.

flinty 11y ago

Inclusivity when it fits their narrative.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

fenomas 11y ago

Hardware/OS aside, it's amazing to see a high-profile webpage in 2015 merrily proclaiming itself to only work in only one browser. It's even more amazing to see some replies on HN defending it.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]