4 ms·

Google is such a strange company. Don't they participate in the suppression of free expression in places like China, justifying it as a cost of doing business?

Google is such a strange company. Don't they participate in the suppression of free expression in places like China, justifying it as a cost of doing business? edit: in an effort to not spread bad information, I'd like to retract my statement. It was based on outdated information.

joeyspn 11y ago
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx
scrollaway 11y ago
> justifying it as a cost of doing business They're justifying it as "it's better than nothing at all". Take from that what you will but let's get the facts right.
kbenson 11y ago
This reality of the censorship appears to be well documented[1], and I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Here's the TL;DR Google filtered terms the Chinese government required (by law), but did so by returning results saying that some items were filtered out specifically so users would know their results were filtered. Google never gave any information on who searched specific terms, but after some attacks on their servers in an apparent attempt to get this information, Google announced they would no longer filter searches for China. Talks on how to accomplish this broke down, and Google redirected their China site to Hong Kong, which has no censorship restrictions, but the Great Firewall seems to be filtering results. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#China
- thieving_magpie 11y ago
  Good information. It's clear I'm outdated and off-base here. I didn't realize they had such backbone.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - on_and_off 11y ago
    @lifeisstillgood IIRC all this happened way before Snowden.
    - nostrademons 11y ago
      This was in 2010, Snowden happened in 2013.
- moey 11y ago
  They stopped the redirect[1] and now just show a link to Google Hong Kong. They also removed the warning that the user's search results were being filtered [2]. To the best of my knowledge, the current status: User visits Google China - http://google.cn http://google.cn - This is a hyperlink to Google Hong Kong on the front page - IF user searches via Google.cn, the search results will be filtered by China not self-censored by Google. They will NOT be presented with a warning anymore. - IF user searches via Google.hk, from mainland china, the same thing will happen and the results will still be filtered. [3] At this point, I don't believe the link to .hk Google serves as much use as it does a political statement. [1] "Google stops Hong Kong auto-redirect as China plays hardball" http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/google-tweaks-china-to-hong-kong-redirect-same-results.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/google-tweak... [2] "Google's dropped anti-censorship warning marks quiet defeat in China" http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/04/google-defeat-china-censorship-battle http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/04/google-def... [3] "China censors searches on Google's Hong Kong-based search engine" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/23/AR2010032301250.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...
  - gertef 11y ago
    I wonder why GFW doesn't take the trivial step of redirecting google.hk to google.cn
  - kbenson 11y ago
    I agree, I think their original stance, showing results and noting where they had to filter, was much better. But if that makes them a target, and can reverse and good they think they are doing if they are hacked by China and any identifying information (correlation with the Great Firewall seems likely) is found, I can see their reasoning. If you truly want to do the right thing, is making yourself a target that makes the situation worse the right way to go about it? It's a complex situation, and there's probably lots of information that we aren't privy to. At least it got press and there was some awareness.
digibo 11y ago
It is either complying with the censorship or being entirely banned from the country. Perhaps by keeping presence they may help slowly change things. I know it's entirely a business decision, but simply saying "Ok, forget about China" won't help either.
baldfat 11y ago
Since Google Pulled out of China and moved to Hong Kong in 2010 I think they really were trying to figure out what the right thing to do. http://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-201... So Google has tried almost everything and has broken into China's Great Firewall. They even were warning users if the content was politically controversial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China

joeyspn 11y ago

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx

scrollaway 11y ago

> justifying it as a cost of doing business They're justifying it as "it's better than nothing at all". Take from that what you will but let's get the facts right.

kbenson 11y ago

This reality of the censorship appears to be well documented[1], and I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Here's the TL;DR Google filtered terms the Chinese government required (by law), but did so by returning results saying that some items were filtered out specifically so users would know their results were filtered. Google never gave any information on who searched specific terms, but after some attacks on their servers in an apparent attempt to get this information, Google announced they would no longer filter searches for China. Talks on how to accomplish this broke down, and Google redirected their China site to Hong Kong, which has no censorship restrictions, but the Great Firewall seems to be filtering results. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_by_Google#China

thieving_magpie 11y ago
Good information. It's clear I'm outdated and off-base here. I didn't realize they had such backbone.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- on_and_off 11y ago
  @lifeisstillgood IIRC all this happened way before Snowden.
  - nostrademons 11y ago
    This was in 2010, Snowden happened in 2013.
moey 11y ago
They stopped the redirect[1] and now just show a link to Google Hong Kong. They also removed the warning that the user's search results were being filtered [2]. To the best of my knowledge, the current status: User visits Google China - http://google.cn http://google.cn - This is a hyperlink to Google Hong Kong on the front page - IF user searches via Google.cn, the search results will be filtered by China not self-censored by Google. They will NOT be presented with a warning anymore. - IF user searches via Google.hk, from mainland china, the same thing will happen and the results will still be filtered. [3] At this point, I don't believe the link to .hk Google serves as much use as it does a political statement. [1] "Google stops Hong Kong auto-redirect as China plays hardball" http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/google-tweaks-china-to-hong-kong-redirect-same-results.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/06/google-tweak... [2] "Google's dropped anti-censorship warning marks quiet defeat in China" http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/04/google-defeat-china-censorship-battle http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/jan/04/google-def... [3] "China censors searches on Google's Hong Kong-based search engine" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/23/AR2010032301250.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03...
- gertef 11y ago
  I wonder why GFW doesn't take the trivial step of redirecting google.hk to google.cn
- kbenson 11y ago
  I agree, I think their original stance, showing results and noting where they had to filter, was much better. But if that makes them a target, and can reverse and good they think they are doing if they are hacked by China and any identifying information (correlation with the Great Firewall seems likely) is found, I can see their reasoning. If you truly want to do the right thing, is making yourself a target that makes the situation worse the right way to go about it? It's a complex situation, and there's probably lots of information that we aren't privy to. At least it got press and there was some awareness.

digibo 11y ago

It is either complying with the censorship or being entirely banned from the country. Perhaps by keeping presence they may help slowly change things. I know it's entirely a business decision, but simply saying "Ok, forget about China" won't help either.

baldfat 11y ago

Since Google Pulled out of China and moved to Hong Kong in 2010 I think they really were trying to figure out what the right thing to do. http://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-2010-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/google-pulls-out-of-china-201... So Google has tried almost everything and has broken into China's Great Firewall. They even were warning users if the content was politically controversial. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China