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Corporations are amoral entities and taxation is an amoral endeavor. It's essentially a very complicated structure of IF/THEN/ELSE conditions. If it's possible

Corporations are amoral entities and taxation is an amoral endeavor. It's essentially a very complicated structure of IF/THEN/ELSE conditions. If it's possible to decrease its tax burden while complying with the law, that's what a corporation is supposed to do. It's not cheating to follow the rules. If one doesn't like the outcome, one should seek to change the law.

nyolfen 11y ago
pretending that the rules of capitalism are somehow beyond the realm of the human and moral is repugnant
- Spivak 11y ago
  pretending that any two people could agree on what's "moral" actually means and that crying that something is immoral isn't just a more accepted way of saying "I don't like that".
- LordKano 11y ago
  Pretending that your definition of morality is the only legitimate one is naive. Is it moral for the mafia to use the threat of force to take a percentage of a business's income? I'd submit that it's not and I suspect that you agree with that.(I'll concede that I don't know you and can't speak for you) Why does that same behavior become moral if/when a government does it? Yet, one of those entities can do it legally.
  - phaemon 11y ago
    I am not a member of the mafia, nor have I used any of their services. I do not owe them any money, therefore it would be wrong for them to demand any money from me. I am a member of a society which has a representative government which acts on its behalf. I have used their services and therefore I owe them money. Therefore, it is legitimate for them to demand that money from me. And both these entities can do so legally. It would be entirely legal for the mafia to use the legal system to demand money from you in the same way the government would (or that any business or organisation you used services from would). The very fact they choose not to, suggests their claim is illegitimate.
    - LordKano 11y ago
      Can you opt out of receiving the government's "services"? We're only obliged to follow the letter of the law. If there is no law against making profits where they are beyond the reach of local taxation, there's nothing objectively wrong about it. Even using your own reasoning, if the profit is made elsewhere, the only moral obligation is to pay the legal taxes that apply in that locale.
      - phaemon 11y ago
        > Can you opt out of receiving the government's "services"? Yes. I don't pay any taxes to the US government, for example, because I don't use any of their services.
        paulsecwhatt 11y ago
        I laughed out loud at this. In no other developed country (in the sense of a competitive GDP, somewhat large and somewhat well educated population) have I seen the same disdain and mistrust for government. Why is it amoral for a government to take taxes if you are - born in a hospital funded by taxes, given vaccines and medication partly funded by taxes, drive to/from home on roads built by taxes, so on and so forth. The people who thing it's unfair they have to pay taxes - what would you prefer? Living in an "AT&T country" where every single service is "privately" owned and you'd be charged fees for it? Sounds like a dream. Comparatively, in countries such as Sweden and Norway, everyone pays taxes (much moreso than in the good old US of A), and yet the tax agency is rated the most trusted government entity in the government. Strangely enough, this "amorality" also leads to some of the best standards of living and social mobility in the world?
        LordKano 11y ago
        Why is it amoral for a government to take taxes Is it possible that you're conflating the definitions of immoral and amoral? born in a hospital funded by taxes This is an assumption. There are many private hospitals. given vaccines and medication partly funded by taxes Vaccines are mandated. It's circular reasoning to say that the costs of someone taking vaccines are justification for taking their money when you forced them to take the vaccine. drive to/from home on roads built by taxes We had roads before direct taxation. The fact that we pay for them with tax money doesn't mean that they wouldn't exist without them. Comparatively, in countries such as Sweden and Norway, everyone pays taxes (much moreso than in the good old US of A), and yet the tax agency is rated the most trusted government entity in the government. I don't know anything of the political situation in Sweden or Norway. Does their tax collecting branch of government ever get used as a political weapon, the way the IRS does?
kefka 11y ago
And the arithmetic also includes: if( (Cost_of_breaking_law * %_chance_of_getting_caught) < profit ) {break_law;}
- leereeves 11y ago
  Corporations are no different from people in this regard; people often break the law when the penalty is light. The problem is that the penalties for "corporate crime" are so low. If the penalty for bank robbery was only 50% of the profit, no bank in America would be safe.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    Even if the penalty was 200% of the profit, that would be the case.
- digler999 11y ago
  s/if/while/g

nyolfen 11y ago

pretending that the rules of capitalism are somehow beyond the realm of the human and moral is repugnant

Spivak 11y ago
pretending that any two people could agree on what's "moral" actually means and that crying that something is immoral isn't just a more accepted way of saying "I don't like that".
LordKano 11y ago
Pretending that your definition of morality is the only legitimate one is naive. Is it moral for the mafia to use the threat of force to take a percentage of a business's income? I'd submit that it's not and I suspect that you agree with that.(I'll concede that I don't know you and can't speak for you) Why does that same behavior become moral if/when a government does it? Yet, one of those entities can do it legally.
- phaemon 11y ago
  I am not a member of the mafia, nor have I used any of their services. I do not owe them any money, therefore it would be wrong for them to demand any money from me. I am a member of a society which has a representative government which acts on its behalf. I have used their services and therefore I owe them money. Therefore, it is legitimate for them to demand that money from me. And both these entities can do so legally. It would be entirely legal for the mafia to use the legal system to demand money from you in the same way the government would (or that any business or organisation you used services from would). The very fact they choose not to, suggests their claim is illegitimate.
  - LordKano 11y ago
    Can you opt out of receiving the government's "services"? We're only obliged to follow the letter of the law. If there is no law against making profits where they are beyond the reach of local taxation, there's nothing objectively wrong about it. Even using your own reasoning, if the profit is made elsewhere, the only moral obligation is to pay the legal taxes that apply in that locale.
    - phaemon 11y ago
      > Can you opt out of receiving the government's "services"? Yes. I don't pay any taxes to the US government, for example, because I don't use any of their services.
      - paulsecwhatt 11y ago
        I laughed out loud at this. In no other developed country (in the sense of a competitive GDP, somewhat large and somewhat well educated population) have I seen the same disdain and mistrust for government. Why is it amoral for a government to take taxes if you are - born in a hospital funded by taxes, given vaccines and medication partly funded by taxes, drive to/from home on roads built by taxes, so on and so forth. The people who thing it's unfair they have to pay taxes - what would you prefer? Living in an "AT&T country" where every single service is "privately" owned and you'd be charged fees for it? Sounds like a dream. Comparatively, in countries such as Sweden and Norway, everyone pays taxes (much moreso than in the good old US of A), and yet the tax agency is rated the most trusted government entity in the government. Strangely enough, this "amorality" also leads to some of the best standards of living and social mobility in the world?
        LordKano 11y ago
        Why is it amoral for a government to take taxes Is it possible that you're conflating the definitions of immoral and amoral? born in a hospital funded by taxes This is an assumption. There are many private hospitals. given vaccines and medication partly funded by taxes Vaccines are mandated. It's circular reasoning to say that the costs of someone taking vaccines are justification for taking their money when you forced them to take the vaccine. drive to/from home on roads built by taxes We had roads before direct taxation. The fact that we pay for them with tax money doesn't mean that they wouldn't exist without them. Comparatively, in countries such as Sweden and Norway, everyone pays taxes (much moreso than in the good old US of A), and yet the tax agency is rated the most trusted government entity in the government. I don't know anything of the political situation in Sweden or Norway. Does their tax collecting branch of government ever get used as a political weapon, the way the IRS does?

kefka 11y ago

And the arithmetic also includes: if( (Cost_of_breaking_law * %_chance_of_getting_caught) < profit ) {break_law;}

leereeves 11y ago
Corporations are no different from people in this regard; people often break the law when the penalty is light. The problem is that the penalties for "corporate crime" are so low. If the penalty for bank robbery was only 50% of the profit, no bank in America would be safe.
- LordKano 11y ago
  Even if the penalty was 200% of the profit, that would be the case.
digler999 11y ago
s/if/while/g