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> The problem is that the software industry doesn’t reflect the needs of society as a whole, she argues. ‘Twentysomething-year-old boys are solving their proble

by dghf 11y ago

> The problem is that the software industry doesn’t reflect the needs of society as a whole, she argues. ‘Twentysomething-year-old boys are solving their problems with dating or meeting friends, but there are different problems in the world,’ she says. I very much hope Linda Liukas has been quoted out of context, because this is one of the most ignorantly reductionist portrayals of the role of IT that I've read. I can scarcely imagine any social problem that hasn't had software applied to it in some shape or form, even if it's just collecting statistics on said problem. I also question the implicit assumption that the majority demographic for users of dating websites and social media is "twentysomething-year-old boys".

icebraining 11y ago
Of course IT has been applied to everything, but that doesn't mean the investment in the industry reflects the needs of society. I also question the implicit assumption that the majority demographic for users of dating websites and social media is "twentysomething-year-old boys". That's not actually what it says, though. It just means the problems that get solved are the most common problems affecting 20-year-old boys, not that those problems aren't shared by must vaster demographics.
- k__ 11y ago
  Are you implying stuff like Tinder, Instagram, Pinterest or Etsy aren't used by women?
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Not, I was specifically saying that wasn't what was implied by that statement. I'll try again with an analogy. Say the biggest problems for society are feeding and clothing their children, getting a job after hitting fifty and paying for medical care, with dating much further down their priorities. On the other hand, 20-year-olds USUALLY don't have kids or major medical problems, and so dating is much more important for them than those things. Now if the 20-year-olds build a dating app, of course most users will not be from their demographics, simply because there are many more non-20-year-olds than them. But it doesn't mean that the time and money investments in that dating app reflects the needs of society as a whole.
    - k__ 11y ago
      Ah, got it. The question is, are the twentysomethings really the problem? There are a bunch of people doing startups and many of them fail, so the stuff that sticks doesn't depend on the "makers" but on the "takers". And, like you said, the "takers" are the non-20-year-olds, of which there are many more.
    - Retra 11y ago
      I don't think that has anything to do with software, but business in general. People who have trouble feeding and clothing their children aren't going to be good customers for your food and clothing business, but people with disposable income and 'first-world-problems' make great customers for your dating site. So the complaint is really that capitalism doesn't solve societies problems, but it does a great job at solving middle-class twenty-something males' problems.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        Well, I certainly can't speak for Liukas, but I don't agree with that. Walmart didn't become one of the ten largest companies in the world by targeting the middle-class twenty-something males' problems - they did so by selling cheaper stuff, for people who are price-sensitive even on essential items like food. Another good example is Enfamil, a baby formula which is also one of the most profitable products in the world. Or drugs - selling treatments for diseases is a great business, and hardly a non-problem for society. There's plenty of money to be made selling to people with low disposable income, simply because there are many more of them than well-off twenty-somethings, and because many of their expenses are subsidized.
        Retra 11y ago
        That's true, but your margin for error is much smaller in that market. It's much harder to make a profit when you need to make your goods cheap, unless you are making them at scale, which also increases the barrier to entry. The reason Walmart is so large it because it's nearly impossible to compete with them. It is much easier to compete for the well-off twenty-something's spending.
- dghf 11y ago
  Fair points. But: - The software industry is more than just twenty-something males writing dating and social media applications. - The software industry will produce what it thinks it can make a profit on, which is an imperfect proxy for what people (and governments) want, which in turn is an imperfect proxy for what society needs. But, absent a centrally planned economy or other non-market mechanism, two imperfect proxies are the best we've got. - Much software is general purpose, and can be applied equally to frivolous and worthy matters: operating systems, databases, networking, web browsers & servers, office tools, etc. - If one is going to complain that the software industry is not addressing society's problems, it would help if one would specify what those problems are.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    - Sure the software industry is more than that, but that still doesn't mean it reflects the needs of society. - As for it producing what it thinks it can make a profit on, that only explains why it doesn't reflect the needs of society, it doesn't refute that the claim. - Is it really "much"? How many production-quality web servers do we have, really? How many operating systems? They are certainly extremely important, but represent little of the actual effort and investment expended. - I don't think complain is the correct term for what she's doing, and besides she didn't exactly write the article herself, so it wasn't her decision to specify anything.
    - dghf 11y ago
      Do you agree with the proposition that "the software industry doesn’t reflect the needs of society as a whole"? If so, in what way does it not reflect those needs? What are those needs? How could the industry reflect them?
      - icebraining 11y ago
        If you're interested, wouldn't you be better off reading up on what Linda Liukas has to say on it? She has certainly giving it much more thought than I have.
- malandrew 11y ago
  Furthermore, the software industry solves all sorts of problems. The problems focused on in that statement are the types of problems publicized in the tech press. It is more a complaint about tech journalism than the tech industry. There are so many companies solving really interesting problems that aren't considered sexy by tech journalists.
shanusmagnus 11y ago
Not to mention the shitstorm that would ensue following an article profiling some dude who trivialized the collective career accomplishments of 'twentysomething-year-old girls.' And that's setting aside the fact that 'twentysomething-year-old boys' basically invented the modern economy.

by dghf 11y ago

icebraining 11y ago

Of course IT has been applied to everything, but that doesn't mean the investment in the industry reflects the needs of society. I also question the implicit assumption that the majority demographic for users of dating websites and social media is "twentysomething-year-old boys". That's not actually what it says, though. It just means the problems that get solved are the most common problems affecting 20-year-old boys, not that those problems aren't shared by must vaster demographics.

k__ 11y ago
Are you implying stuff like Tinder, Instagram, Pinterest or Etsy aren't used by women?
- icebraining 11y ago
  Not, I was specifically saying that wasn't what was implied by that statement. I'll try again with an analogy. Say the biggest problems for society are feeding and clothing their children, getting a job after hitting fifty and paying for medical care, with dating much further down their priorities. On the other hand, 20-year-olds USUALLY don't have kids or major medical problems, and so dating is much more important for them than those things. Now if the 20-year-olds build a dating app, of course most users will not be from their demographics, simply because there are many more non-20-year-olds than them. But it doesn't mean that the time and money investments in that dating app reflects the needs of society as a whole.
  - k__ 11y ago
    Ah, got it. The question is, are the twentysomethings really the problem? There are a bunch of people doing startups and many of them fail, so the stuff that sticks doesn't depend on the "makers" but on the "takers". And, like you said, the "takers" are the non-20-year-olds, of which there are many more.
  - Retra 11y ago
    I don't think that has anything to do with software, but business in general. People who have trouble feeding and clothing their children aren't going to be good customers for your food and clothing business, but people with disposable income and 'first-world-problems' make great customers for your dating site. So the complaint is really that capitalism doesn't solve societies problems, but it does a great job at solving middle-class twenty-something males' problems.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Well, I certainly can't speak for Liukas, but I don't agree with that. Walmart didn't become one of the ten largest companies in the world by targeting the middle-class twenty-something males' problems - they did so by selling cheaper stuff, for people who are price-sensitive even on essential items like food. Another good example is Enfamil, a baby formula which is also one of the most profitable products in the world. Or drugs - selling treatments for diseases is a great business, and hardly a non-problem for society. There's plenty of money to be made selling to people with low disposable income, simply because there are many more of them than well-off twenty-somethings, and because many of their expenses are subsidized.
      - Retra 11y ago
        That's true, but your margin for error is much smaller in that market. It's much harder to make a profit when you need to make your goods cheap, unless you are making them at scale, which also increases the barrier to entry. The reason Walmart is so large it because it's nearly impossible to compete with them. It is much easier to compete for the well-off twenty-something's spending.
dghf 11y ago
Fair points. But: - The software industry is more than just twenty-something males writing dating and social media applications. - The software industry will produce what it thinks it can make a profit on, which is an imperfect proxy for what people (and governments) want, which in turn is an imperfect proxy for what society needs. But, absent a centrally planned economy or other non-market mechanism, two imperfect proxies are the best we've got. - Much software is general purpose, and can be applied equally to frivolous and worthy matters: operating systems, databases, networking, web browsers & servers, office tools, etc. - If one is going to complain that the software industry is not addressing society's problems, it would help if one would specify what those problems are.
- icebraining 11y ago
  - Sure the software industry is more than that, but that still doesn't mean it reflects the needs of society. - As for it producing what it thinks it can make a profit on, that only explains why it doesn't reflect the needs of society, it doesn't refute that the claim. - Is it really "much"? How many production-quality web servers do we have, really? How many operating systems? They are certainly extremely important, but represent little of the actual effort and investment expended. - I don't think complain is the correct term for what she's doing, and besides she didn't exactly write the article herself, so it wasn't her decision to specify anything.
  - dghf 11y ago
    Do you agree with the proposition that "the software industry doesn’t reflect the needs of society as a whole"? If so, in what way does it not reflect those needs? What are those needs? How could the industry reflect them?
    - icebraining 11y ago
      If you're interested, wouldn't you be better off reading up on what Linda Liukas has to say on it? She has certainly giving it much more thought than I have.
malandrew 11y ago
Furthermore, the software industry solves all sorts of problems. The problems focused on in that statement are the types of problems publicized in the tech press. It is more a complaint about tech journalism than the tech industry. There are so many companies solving really interesting problems that aren't considered sexy by tech journalists.

shanusmagnus 11y ago

Not to mention the shitstorm that would ensue following an article profiling some dude who trivialized the collective career accomplishments of 'twentysomething-year-old girls.' And that's setting aside the fact that 'twentysomething-year-old boys' basically invented the modern economy.