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What I don't get: I stopped using alkalines long ago, and have since settled for Eneloop rechargeable batteries. They can be reasonably used even in wall clocks

What I don't get: I stopped using alkalines long ago, and have since settled for Eneloop rechargeable batteries. They can be reasonably used even in wall clocks, due to their low rate of self-discharge. Why do people still buy the regular ones?

Nursie 11y ago
They're cheap, usually last longer than rechargeables (I think) and recharging is a pain? Not very environmentally friendly I know. Most things seem to have built-in batteries these days so there are fewer and fewer reasons to use any of them I guess.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
Higher up front costs. A 4 pack of double or triple As only costs a few bucks, less than a dollar per cell even at retail prices. Comparatively you need to spend at least $10 just to get a couple eneloop cells, 2 to 3 dollars per cell, plus at least that much for a charger (a decent one is more like $40). Then you have the hassle of keeping things charged, which realistically means having a stock of extra batteries lying around. Also, it doesn't help that the cheapest rechargeable batteries and chargers lead to a comparatively bad user experience (batteries not holding a charge long, low lifetimes). Similarly, look at kitchen knives. Most folks have sub-par stamped kitchen knives instead of a decent chef's knife even though you can get decent ones for 30 to 40 bucks or so. It's a matter of high up front costs and not knowing what they're missing.
- MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
  True, I always have charged spares and a high quality charger. Still, in the long run its cheaper, and better for the environment. But then I also own high-quality kitchen knives and sharpen them regularly, cutting tomatoes with a blunt knive is something I refuse to do. Guess you're right.
BorgHunter 11y ago
NiMH cells are expensive compared to alkaline cells. A quick check on Amazon shows that, when buying a decent amount of AA cells at a time, alkalines go for about $0.28 each compared to $1.67 each for NiMH cells.[0][1] Add in a charger (and consider that most cheaper chargers are really crappy--look for NLee the Engineer's reviews[2]) and many don't consider the benefits to outweigh the initial capital costs. (Also, alkalines tend to operate at 1.5 V for a good portion of the voltage curve whereas NiMH cells are usually around 1.3 V. This can cause problems in some devices, although less so today than, say, ten years ago.) I absolutely agree that NiMH cells are superior in almost every way, but it's not irrational to prefer disposable batteries. [0] http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Performance-Alkaline-Batteries-48-Pack/dp/B00MNV8E0C http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Performance-Alkaline-Batt... [1] http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries-16-Pack/dp/B007B9NV8Q http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries... [2] e.g. http://www.amazon.com/review/RMWO7UZ9TAVRF/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm http://www.amazon.com/review/RMWO7UZ9TAVRF/ref=cm_cr_rdp_per...
- pknight 11y ago
  Yep, voltage on the eneloops by comparison is 1.2V. Lots of battery operated toys work better with 1.5V batteries. There are rechargeable alkalines that provide 1.5V but they are very unreliable and the rest of the rechargeable AA market is lower voltage. So batteriser would be pretty neat if it works as advertised.
  - ska 11y ago
    You really wouldn't want to use this approach with rechargeables, as they degrade pretty quickly if discharged too far (which is what this would do)
toxican 11y ago
The things I still use batteries for last long enough to not really justify the extra cost of rechargables, which I have a history of losing. Remotes and clocks are pretty much the only things I need batteries for and they last a very long time on even the cheap dollar tree batteries.
VLM 11y ago
Aren't your Eneloop's just trademarked top of the line NiMH cells? A quote from the article: "For starters, and this is important, any product that is designed to be used with both rechargeable NiMH and Alkaline primary batteries (a design goal of most good products), must work down to at least 1.1V per cell." IF you can find a device that won't run on a rechargeable (which may be hard to do), then you need an alkaline, thats just how it is. The other argument is financial. I have a cheap wall clock that runs about a year on a AA. The prices are very hard to understand on Amazon but you're looking at about $4 or more per rechargeable eneloop AA and around 40 cents for an alkaline AA in bulk. I think its fair to compare onsie-twosie rechargeables to bulk disposables; isn't that the entire point of being rechargeable? So I need to keep that clock powered up for more than a decade to run a profit on the rechargeable. Honestly I don't think it'll hold up that long. You need to recharge that dude more than, say, every six months, to run a profit, longer than that and its cheaper to dispose. Presumably they don't charge $4 for a top of the line NiMH and 40 cents for an alkaline just for fun, I think its extremely safe to estimate the rechargeable causes at least 10x the environmental damage as the alkaline. Obviously the linear damage is 10x alone, some employee somewhere will get that $4 instead of 40 cents and buy gasoline or food or other petrochemical related substance, plus the issues with nickel refining, the electrolyte is somewhat more exciting, etc. So its not just a financial win.
damoncali 11y ago
Voltage, mainly. Sometimes NiMH batteries just don't do the job for very long- it's like putting in an almost dead battery to start with. My kids' wii remotes, for example, don't work very well on rechargeables. They work for a little while, but I was constantly recharging them to the point where it got stupid.
- tzs 11y ago
  My Wii remote worked fine on Eneloop batteries. For regular alkaline batteries, Nintendo says 60 hours lifetime using just the accelerometer, and 25 hours using both accelerometer and pointer. That's not very long for a kid that's seriously into a game. Is it possible that you are also going through non-rechargeable batteries reasonably fast, but don't notice because, say, the kids can change those without your involvement, but with rechargeable batteries you are the one who handled recharging so saw every battery swap? Another thing to watch out for is that alkaline and NiMH have very different discharge curves. Alkaline starts at 1.5, then falls steeply to around 1.3-1.4, then drops at a more gentle rate down to around 1.1, and then plummets. NiMH starts at around 1.3, drops to 1.2, and then stays close to level until near the end, then starts dropping faster for a bit, then goes over a cliff. If a device was not designed specifically to allow for NiMH, it is going to assume a discharge curve that follows the alkaline profile. When it uses voltage to estimate how much battery life is left, it is going to get confused by the NiMH curve. If you put fresh NiMH batteries in a device, use it a while, and check the battery level, it will be reported as much lower then it really is. This can fool people into replacing the batteries early, because they figure it is falling fast and they don't have much time left. I had one device where it would report not long after I put fresh batteries in that it was down to 60%, and if alkaline had fallen to 60% that fast, it would be time to put new batteries on my shopping list...but in reality with the NiMH it would actually stay at about 60% for weeks.
Zak 11y ago
What I'd really like to see is more consumer devices that run on removable lithium-ion cells. I have several flashlights and power banks[0] that run on 18650 cells. I'm thinking of adding a Solderdoodle soldering iron to that and maybe constructing a device to provide power to my laptop's DC port while changing its battery. Of course, I don't have my hopes set too high for this, as there's a certain degree of liability risk in handing lithium-ion cells to consumers; they don't take as kindly to abuse as alkalines and have been known to explode on occasion when severely mistreated. [0] I'd rate the Miller ML-102 power bank as a best-in-class product for running on removable 18650 cells and putting out 1.8A on a single cell. It costs $6.

Nursie 11y ago

They're cheap, usually last longer than rechargeables (I think) and recharging is a pain? Not very environmentally friendly I know. Most things seem to have built-in batteries these days so there are fewer and fewer reasons to use any of them I guess.

InclinedPlane 11y ago

Higher up front costs. A 4 pack of double or triple As only costs a few bucks, less than a dollar per cell even at retail prices. Comparatively you need to spend at least $10 just to get a couple eneloop cells, 2 to 3 dollars per cell, plus at least that much for a charger (a decent one is more like $40). Then you have the hassle of keeping things charged, which realistically means having a stock of extra batteries lying around. Also, it doesn't help that the cheapest rechargeable batteries and chargers lead to a comparatively bad user experience (batteries not holding a charge long, low lifetimes). Similarly, look at kitchen knives. Most folks have sub-par stamped kitchen knives instead of a decent chef's knife even though you can get decent ones for 30 to 40 bucks or so. It's a matter of high up front costs and not knowing what they're missing.

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
True, I always have charged spares and a high quality charger. Still, in the long run its cheaper, and better for the environment. But then I also own high-quality kitchen knives and sharpen them regularly, cutting tomatoes with a blunt knive is something I refuse to do. Guess you're right.

BorgHunter 11y ago

NiMH cells are expensive compared to alkaline cells. A quick check on Amazon shows that, when buying a decent amount of AA cells at a time, alkalines go for about $0.28 each compared to $1.67 each for NiMH cells.[0][1] Add in a charger (and consider that most cheaper chargers are really crappy--look for NLee the Engineer's reviews[2]) and many don't consider the benefits to outweigh the initial capital costs. (Also, alkalines tend to operate at 1.5 V for a good portion of the voltage curve whereas NiMH cells are usually around 1.3 V. This can cause problems in some devices, although less so today than, say, ten years ago.) I absolutely agree that NiMH cells are superior in almost every way, but it's not irrational to prefer disposable batteries. [0] http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Performance-Alkaline-Batteries-48-Pack/dp/B00MNV8E0C http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Performance-Alkaline-Batt... [1] http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries-16-Pack/dp/B007B9NV8Q http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-AA-Rechargeable-Batteries... [2] e.g. http://www.amazon.com/review/RMWO7UZ9TAVRF/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm http://www.amazon.com/review/RMWO7UZ9TAVRF/ref=cm_cr_rdp_per...

pknight 11y ago
Yep, voltage on the eneloops by comparison is 1.2V. Lots of battery operated toys work better with 1.5V batteries. There are rechargeable alkalines that provide 1.5V but they are very unreliable and the rest of the rechargeable AA market is lower voltage. So batteriser would be pretty neat if it works as advertised.
- ska 11y ago
  You really wouldn't want to use this approach with rechargeables, as they degrade pretty quickly if discharged too far (which is what this would do)

toxican 11y ago

The things I still use batteries for last long enough to not really justify the extra cost of rechargables, which I have a history of losing. Remotes and clocks are pretty much the only things I need batteries for and they last a very long time on even the cheap dollar tree batteries.

VLM 11y ago

Aren't your Eneloop's just trademarked top of the line NiMH cells? A quote from the article: "For starters, and this is important, any product that is designed to be used with both rechargeable NiMH and Alkaline primary batteries (a design goal of most good products), must work down to at least 1.1V per cell." IF you can find a device that won't run on a rechargeable (which may be hard to do), then you need an alkaline, thats just how it is. The other argument is financial. I have a cheap wall clock that runs about a year on a AA. The prices are very hard to understand on Amazon but you're looking at about $4 or more per rechargeable eneloop AA and around 40 cents for an alkaline AA in bulk. I think its fair to compare onsie-twosie rechargeables to bulk disposables; isn't that the entire point of being rechargeable? So I need to keep that clock powered up for more than a decade to run a profit on the rechargeable. Honestly I don't think it'll hold up that long. You need to recharge that dude more than, say, every six months, to run a profit, longer than that and its cheaper to dispose. Presumably they don't charge $4 for a top of the line NiMH and 40 cents for an alkaline just for fun, I think its extremely safe to estimate the rechargeable causes at least 10x the environmental damage as the alkaline. Obviously the linear damage is 10x alone, some employee somewhere will get that $4 instead of 40 cents and buy gasoline or food or other petrochemical related substance, plus the issues with nickel refining, the electrolyte is somewhat more exciting, etc. So its not just a financial win.

damoncali 11y ago

Voltage, mainly. Sometimes NiMH batteries just don't do the job for very long- it's like putting in an almost dead battery to start with. My kids' wii remotes, for example, don't work very well on rechargeables. They work for a little while, but I was constantly recharging them to the point where it got stupid.

tzs 11y ago
My Wii remote worked fine on Eneloop batteries. For regular alkaline batteries, Nintendo says 60 hours lifetime using just the accelerometer, and 25 hours using both accelerometer and pointer. That's not very long for a kid that's seriously into a game. Is it possible that you are also going through non-rechargeable batteries reasonably fast, but don't notice because, say, the kids can change those without your involvement, but with rechargeable batteries you are the one who handled recharging so saw every battery swap? Another thing to watch out for is that alkaline and NiMH have very different discharge curves. Alkaline starts at 1.5, then falls steeply to around 1.3-1.4, then drops at a more gentle rate down to around 1.1, and then plummets. NiMH starts at around 1.3, drops to 1.2, and then stays close to level until near the end, then starts dropping faster for a bit, then goes over a cliff. If a device was not designed specifically to allow for NiMH, it is going to assume a discharge curve that follows the alkaline profile. When it uses voltage to estimate how much battery life is left, it is going to get confused by the NiMH curve. If you put fresh NiMH batteries in a device, use it a while, and check the battery level, it will be reported as much lower then it really is. This can fool people into replacing the batteries early, because they figure it is falling fast and they don't have much time left. I had one device where it would report not long after I put fresh batteries in that it was down to 60%, and if alkaline had fallen to 60% that fast, it would be time to put new batteries on my shopping list...but in reality with the NiMH it would actually stay at about 60% for weeks.

Zak 11y ago

What I'd really like to see is more consumer devices that run on removable lithium-ion cells. I have several flashlights and power banks[0] that run on 18650 cells. I'm thinking of adding a Solderdoodle soldering iron to that and maybe constructing a device to provide power to my laptop's DC port while changing its battery. Of course, I don't have my hopes set too high for this, as there's a certain degree of liability risk in handing lithium-ion cells to consumers; they don't take as kindly to abuse as alkalines and have been known to explode on occasion when severely mistreated. [0] I'd rate the Miller ML-102 power bank as a best-in-class product for running on removable 18650 cells and putting out 1.8A on a single cell. It costs $6.