4 ms·

Reads like a scientology ad

lamuerteflaca 11y ago
>>Reads like a Scientology ad After just reading the first few lines I started thinking what a bunch of bull. Then I read your message and I laughed because it's so true...:) What worries me is that it is so easy to be taken in by this stuff. Specially if you are in a vulnerable state.
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  It is what you make of it; that's also the whole point, so it's funny because it's meta. That's also why I find people who are super-invested in that type of thing and super serious about it hilarious; it's as if they don't get it because they think they get it so hard.
crindy 11y ago
Did you sign up just to bash vipassana? I'm curious as to why you feel so strongly about the issue. If it works for some people, it works for them. Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?
- compbio 11y ago
  Scientology and some Thelemic orgs use Vipassana and other meditative techniques to ensnare their students. The wonky experiences like out-of-body experiences are used to market the system. So it works, yet is still abused to capitalize on the spiritual progress of followers. It works, but so does a parlor trick works when your audience does not pay full attention. Your question: 'Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?' is a tricky one. A practice can be harmful to others without being harmful to you. Does it cause harm to you if other people try out heroin? Does that void a strong opinion on drug abuse? To people not, or slightly, familiar with Vipassana, such stories do read like someone smoked their first joint and its the cure for every ailment they can think of. Like born-again people talking about "seeing God and having Him save my life". Glad it helped and you are so enthusiastic, but you are still claiming salvation from an invisible man in the sky, aka: you sound like a Scientology ad. Especially when claiming medical benefits, caution is required. Edit: I am not comparing meditation to heroin. I am showing that the question 'Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?' is a trick question, a debating technique. Answering 'no' does not invalidate the statement 'this reads like a scientology ad'. But even if I did compare meditation to heroin, so what? The article compared meditation to psychedelics.
  - rosser 11y ago
    You're comparing meditation to heroin?
  - ctolsen 11y ago
    The article compared meditation to psychedelics because the author is misguided. They may produce remotely similar states of mind. That does not mean they are equal. There is no claim of salvation in meditation. Only claims of personal benefit in terms of calm and compassion, plus an increasing body of scientific evidence of cognitive benefits. Invisible men in the sky are the antithesis of Vipassana, and anyone who uses it to ensnare anyone are frauds. The only benefits are within yourself, and the teachings make that abundantly clear. Also, implying that Vipassana and meditation can harm anyone is absolutely ridiculous. It cannot do that anymore than reading a book or eating breakfast can.
    - compbio 11y ago
      Some Vipassana retreats require you to surrender to the Buddha and the master before starting. Invisible men in the sky are the antithesis of Vipassana since Vipassana masters claim that reality is not real anyway. You say invisble men in the sky are foreign to Vipassana. So what is "Nibbana" if not something beyond mind and matter? Why do spirit entities live inside tree-trunks? Why rid yourself of 'mental factors' that are able to "color the mind"? The cognitive benefits-schtick is also used to justify the religious doctrination: "You have passed and future lives through reincarnation. Buddha existed and we have his teachings. Our goal is to become deathless.". It's scientific right? The cognitive benefits-research focuses on hospital patients and stress/pain relieve. They do not send these patients to a 10-day retreat, where they are not allowed to talk, must surrender to a master, do extreme meditation techniques for hours on end, till they self-operated on their psyche enough it's broken and they now have to repair it. What salvation is for Christians, is enlightenment for Vipassana. There are frauds out there who use these techniques to ensnare students, and there are students out there who ensnare themselves through being young, naive and gullible. Since the experiences are so dramatic, you get a host of uncritical people who proselytize Vipassana. Kinda like people who buy expensive Apple products will be lauding Apple, since else their investment was bad, and no one wants to admit to that. The people for who it didn't work remain quiet, especially when the master told them it was their own fault. Vipassana for prolonged times can do much more than reading a book or eating breakfast. What if the author had gotten a psychotic episode during his tripping balls? Would that be dismissed with another fancy foreign term or garbled psychological babble? Would a master be able to spot deteriorating mental health in their patients? People report disassociation, hallucinations and hearing voices. To a qualified mental health professional that would not be scientific evidence of cognitive benefits, that would be a manifestation of latent schizophrenia. Then there are the documented suicides and self-harm... but then again, people have probably died from eating bad breakfast too. Meditation-induced psychosis: http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125 http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125 Panic attacks and depressed episodes: http://zensydney.com/Mental-Health-and-Intensive-Meditation-Retreats http://zensydney.com/Mental-Health-and-Intensive-Meditation-... Psychiatric complications of meditation practice: http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-13-81-02-137.pdf http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-13-81-02-137.pdf Terrible and Traumatic Experience at Goenka Retreat: http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2012/03/terrible-and-traumatic-experience-at.html http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2012/... The Potential Downside To Vipassana: http://livingvipassana.blogspot.de/2007/06/potential-downside-to-vipassana.html http://livingvipassana.blogspot.de/2007/06/potential-downsid...
futuravenir 11y ago
Unlike Scientology, Vipassana courses are free. They provide food, shelter, and an incredible experience on the donations of others. If you want to give a donation after you've finished the course (and only after you've finished the complete course, they won't accept donations otherwise), then you are welcomed to.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- oskarth 11y ago
  I have never done a Vipassana retreat, but I've played around with that style of meditation with good results. To me this is one of the most admirable aspects of it - so many of these so called "spiritual" (a misguided umbrella term) retreats/courses functions more as a way for the founder to get rich than to do something good. See the founder of Bikram yoga.
pizza234 11y ago
And yet again, it's not rocket science. There are simple psychological reasons for having pains. If a person has a very tense lifestyle, no wonder he/she will get pains due to induced muscle stiffness. In such cases, even a cup of tea a day (just to say) can "miraculously" cure a back pain, if the latter is caused by induced stiffness, and the first causes a daily relaxation.
- helloagain 11y ago
  I was not wearing my glasses and I read that first sentence as "There are simple psychological reasons for having pants". But I suppose this statement is also true :)
ctolsen 11y ago
Except it doesn't. Vipassana courses are barely advertised, people come of their own volition, and participate for free. People are asked to try their method for ten days, not to change their lives without wanting to. If they did advertise, they'd have scientific evidence that there are benefits from their methods. However, they don't use that, because meditation is not about proven benefits to them. It's about living a more compassionate and harmonious life. Hardly a scam of any kind. I don't know why anyone would attempt to discredit it.

>>Reads like a Scientology ad After just reading the first few lines I started thinking what a bunch of bull. Then I read your message and I laughed because it's so true...:) What worries me is that it is so easy to be taken in by this stuff. Specially if you are in a vulnerable state.

seanp2k2 11y ago
It is what you make of it; that's also the whole point, so it's funny because it's meta. That's also why I find people who are super-invested in that type of thing and super serious about it hilarious; it's as if they don't get it because they think they get it so hard.

crindy 11y ago

Did you sign up just to bash vipassana? I'm curious as to why you feel so strongly about the issue. If it works for some people, it works for them. Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?

compbio 11y ago
Scientology and some Thelemic orgs use Vipassana and other meditative techniques to ensnare their students. The wonky experiences like out-of-body experiences are used to market the system. So it works, yet is still abused to capitalize on the spiritual progress of followers. It works, but so does a parlor trick works when your audience does not pay full attention. Your question: 'Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?' is a tricky one. A practice can be harmful to others without being harmful to you. Does it cause harm to you if other people try out heroin? Does that void a strong opinion on drug abuse? To people not, or slightly, familiar with Vipassana, such stories do read like someone smoked their first joint and its the cure for every ailment they can think of. Like born-again people talking about "seeing God and having Him save my life". Glad it helped and you are so enthusiastic, but you are still claiming salvation from an invisible man in the sky, aka: you sound like a Scientology ad. Especially when claiming medical benefits, caution is required. Edit: I am not comparing meditation to heroin. I am showing that the question 'Does it cause harm to you if other people give it a try?' is a trick question, a debating technique. Answering 'no' does not invalidate the statement 'this reads like a scientology ad'. But even if I did compare meditation to heroin, so what? The article compared meditation to psychedelics.
- rosser 11y ago
  You're comparing meditation to heroin?
- ctolsen 11y ago
  The article compared meditation to psychedelics because the author is misguided. They may produce remotely similar states of mind. That does not mean they are equal. There is no claim of salvation in meditation. Only claims of personal benefit in terms of calm and compassion, plus an increasing body of scientific evidence of cognitive benefits. Invisible men in the sky are the antithesis of Vipassana, and anyone who uses it to ensnare anyone are frauds. The only benefits are within yourself, and the teachings make that abundantly clear. Also, implying that Vipassana and meditation can harm anyone is absolutely ridiculous. It cannot do that anymore than reading a book or eating breakfast can.
  - compbio 11y ago
    Some Vipassana retreats require you to surrender to the Buddha and the master before starting. Invisible men in the sky are the antithesis of Vipassana since Vipassana masters claim that reality is not real anyway. You say invisble men in the sky are foreign to Vipassana. So what is "Nibbana" if not something beyond mind and matter? Why do spirit entities live inside tree-trunks? Why rid yourself of 'mental factors' that are able to "color the mind"? The cognitive benefits-schtick is also used to justify the religious doctrination: "You have passed and future lives through reincarnation. Buddha existed and we have his teachings. Our goal is to become deathless.". It's scientific right? The cognitive benefits-research focuses on hospital patients and stress/pain relieve. They do not send these patients to a 10-day retreat, where they are not allowed to talk, must surrender to a master, do extreme meditation techniques for hours on end, till they self-operated on their psyche enough it's broken and they now have to repair it. What salvation is for Christians, is enlightenment for Vipassana. There are frauds out there who use these techniques to ensnare students, and there are students out there who ensnare themselves through being young, naive and gullible. Since the experiences are so dramatic, you get a host of uncritical people who proselytize Vipassana. Kinda like people who buy expensive Apple products will be lauding Apple, since else their investment was bad, and no one wants to admit to that. The people for who it didn't work remain quiet, especially when the master told them it was their own fault. Vipassana for prolonged times can do much more than reading a book or eating breakfast. What if the author had gotten a psychotic episode during his tripping balls? Would that be dismissed with another fancy foreign term or garbled psychological babble? Would a master be able to spot deteriorating mental health in their patients? People report disassociation, hallucinations and hearing voices. To a qualified mental health professional that would not be scientific evidence of cognitive benefits, that would be a manifestation of latent schizophrenia. Then there are the documented suicides and self-harm... but then again, people have probably died from eating bad breakfast too. Meditation-induced psychosis: http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125 http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/108125 Panic attacks and depressed episodes: http://zensydney.com/Mental-Health-and-Intensive-Meditation-Retreats http://zensydney.com/Mental-Health-and-Intensive-Meditation-... Psychiatric complications of meditation practice: http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-13-81-02-137.pdf http://www.atpweb.org/jtparchive/trps-13-81-02-137.pdf Terrible and Traumatic Experience at Goenka Retreat: http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2012/03/terrible-and-traumatic-experience-at.html http://downthecrookedpath-meditation-gurus.blogspot.de/2012/... The Potential Downside To Vipassana: http://livingvipassana.blogspot.de/2007/06/potential-downside-to-vipassana.html http://livingvipassana.blogspot.de/2007/06/potential-downsid...

futuravenir 11y ago

Unlike Scientology, Vipassana courses are free. They provide food, shelter, and an incredible experience on the donations of others. If you want to give a donation after you've finished the course (and only after you've finished the complete course, they won't accept donations otherwise), then you are welcomed to.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
oskarth 11y ago
I have never done a Vipassana retreat, but I've played around with that style of meditation with good results. To me this is one of the most admirable aspects of it - so many of these so called "spiritual" (a misguided umbrella term) retreats/courses functions more as a way for the founder to get rich than to do something good. See the founder of Bikram yoga.

pizza234 11y ago

And yet again, it's not rocket science. There are simple psychological reasons for having pains. If a person has a very tense lifestyle, no wonder he/she will get pains due to induced muscle stiffness. In such cases, even a cup of tea a day (just to say) can "miraculously" cure a back pain, if the latter is caused by induced stiffness, and the first causes a daily relaxation.

helloagain 11y ago
I was not wearing my glasses and I read that first sentence as "There are simple psychological reasons for having pants". But I suppose this statement is also true :)

ctolsen 11y ago

Except it doesn't. Vipassana courses are barely advertised, people come of their own volition, and participate for free. People are asked to try their method for ten days, not to change their lives without wanting to. If they did advertise, they'd have scientific evidence that there are benefits from their methods. However, they don't use that, because meditation is not about proven benefits to them. It's about living a more compassionate and harmonious life. Hardly a scam of any kind. I don't know why anyone would attempt to discredit it.