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It is worth distinguishing between first world poverty and third world poverty with statements like this. They're different things. I can easily believe third

It is worth distinguishing between first world poverty and third world poverty with statements like this. They're different things. I can easily believe third world poverty causes permanent IQ deficiencies. First world poverty, I'm sure there are cases, but I'd expect much less significantly. I'd like to hear more details. Especially with first world poverty, it is not enough to point to a bad outcome associated with poor people and call it an effect of poverty. If it is financially possible to give your kids proper nutrition, but you don't know how to do it, or you just don't care about doing it, it isn't poverty that is causing your kids to suffer. But you would still expect to see this more in poor families than well off ones.

flycaliguy 11y ago
But the poverty IS effecting the ability for these parents to feed their kids right, even if technically money isn't the limitation. I see where you are coming from, but my argument is that the effects of being poor are preventing these parents from the tools, time, education, patience... and so on to properly feed their kids. So yeah, it's direct and indirect. My main point is that poverty is creating an interconnected web of issues for kids. What might seem like a parent not caring about feeding their kids right might be connected to that parent living in an unsafe neighbourhood where a bus ride to the best food source is impractical compared to the corner store's junk food.
- mattchew 11y ago
  > But the poverty IS effecting the ability for these parents to feed their kids right, even if technically money isn't the limitation. > my argument is that the effects of being poor are preventing these parents from the tools, time, education, patience This is assuming the conclusion all over again, one level further out. How do you know that the lack of education, patience, etc is caused by lack of money? > My main point is that poverty is creating an interconnected web of issues for kids. There is a web of issues, that much I agree with. Lots of outcomes are worse for poor people, and one bad result interacts with another. But the fact that it is an interconnected web means it is harder, not easier, to indisputably assign all those effects to a single cause.
- autokad 11y ago
  food only effects mental abilities when they are extremely deficient in them, which is virtually impossible in the united states. it may not fit your world view, but even junk food isn't going to destroy their brains - i grew up on junk food. it really just comes down to one thing: valuing education. most people who are poor don't value education, and those values are passed on to children. these types of studies are dangerous because they measure one thing (poverty) and try to garner one outcome from it and suggest claims of causation.
  - krohling 11y ago
    Education's financial value is only seen over long time scales, i.e. It takes many years to finish your degree and start making money with it. When you have been living your whole life paycheck to paycheck and the timescales you're used to are weeks and months, things like dedicating years to a degree simply feel out of reach and not worth consideration. My point is, even if families with low SES don't "value education" as you've described it, it doesn't mean it's something within their control.
    - autokad 11y ago
      yes, it takes many years to harvest the value of education, it is moot point to argue that they choose to ignore the benefits regardless of what is going on around them. the point is, just because they don't have access to trader does doesn't ruin them. their genetics probably don't make them stupid, and what ever umpteen dozen excuses you can come up with does not permanently seal their fate in a class. what does change things is valuing education. being born poor is usually the situation of people prior making bad decisions, most usually not valuing long term benefits such as education. staying poor is continuing those beliefs. and it is totally within their control. it doesnt sit well with many, because its hard to believe people cant be fixed, that they have to fix themselves. its hard to believe that people in a bad situation need to start making better decisions for themselves. its hard to believe this isn't something this can be fixed by throwing more money at bad, by taxing more, etc etc in many places, this isnt always true. In the Philippines for example, you can value education all you want but opportunities are rare. but not in the US, there are ample opportunities for those who want to take them, and now with the internet it is even easier for those to find the resources they need.
Terr_ 11y ago
> If it is financially possible to give your kids proper nutrition, but you don't know how to do it, or you just don't care about doing it, it isn't poverty that is causing your kids to suffer. Depends, were those parents once impoverished children themselves? If so, you may be seeing multigenerational effects of the same cause.

flycaliguy 11y ago

But the poverty IS effecting the ability for these parents to feed their kids right, even if technically money isn't the limitation. I see where you are coming from, but my argument is that the effects of being poor are preventing these parents from the tools, time, education, patience... and so on to properly feed their kids. So yeah, it's direct and indirect. My main point is that poverty is creating an interconnected web of issues for kids. What might seem like a parent not caring about feeding their kids right might be connected to that parent living in an unsafe neighbourhood where a bus ride to the best food source is impractical compared to the corner store's junk food.

mattchew 11y ago
> But the poverty IS effecting the ability for these parents to feed their kids right, even if technically money isn't the limitation. > my argument is that the effects of being poor are preventing these parents from the tools, time, education, patience This is assuming the conclusion all over again, one level further out. How do you know that the lack of education, patience, etc is caused by lack of money? > My main point is that poverty is creating an interconnected web of issues for kids. There is a web of issues, that much I agree with. Lots of outcomes are worse for poor people, and one bad result interacts with another. But the fact that it is an interconnected web means it is harder, not easier, to indisputably assign all those effects to a single cause.
autokad 11y ago
food only effects mental abilities when they are extremely deficient in them, which is virtually impossible in the united states. it may not fit your world view, but even junk food isn't going to destroy their brains - i grew up on junk food. it really just comes down to one thing: valuing education. most people who are poor don't value education, and those values are passed on to children. these types of studies are dangerous because they measure one thing (poverty) and try to garner one outcome from it and suggest claims of causation.
- krohling 11y ago
  Education's financial value is only seen over long time scales, i.e. It takes many years to finish your degree and start making money with it. When you have been living your whole life paycheck to paycheck and the timescales you're used to are weeks and months, things like dedicating years to a degree simply feel out of reach and not worth consideration. My point is, even if families with low SES don't "value education" as you've described it, it doesn't mean it's something within their control.
  - autokad 11y ago
    yes, it takes many years to harvest the value of education, it is moot point to argue that they choose to ignore the benefits regardless of what is going on around them. the point is, just because they don't have access to trader does doesn't ruin them. their genetics probably don't make them stupid, and what ever umpteen dozen excuses you can come up with does not permanently seal their fate in a class. what does change things is valuing education. being born poor is usually the situation of people prior making bad decisions, most usually not valuing long term benefits such as education. staying poor is continuing those beliefs. and it is totally within their control. it doesnt sit well with many, because its hard to believe people cant be fixed, that they have to fix themselves. its hard to believe that people in a bad situation need to start making better decisions for themselves. its hard to believe this isn't something this can be fixed by throwing more money at bad, by taxing more, etc etc in many places, this isnt always true. In the Philippines for example, you can value education all you want but opportunities are rare. but not in the US, there are ample opportunities for those who want to take them, and now with the internet it is even easier for those to find the resources they need.

Terr_ 11y ago

> If it is financially possible to give your kids proper nutrition, but you don't know how to do it, or you just don't care about doing it, it isn't poverty that is causing your kids to suffer. Depends, were those parents once impoverished children themselves? If so, you may be seeing multigenerational effects of the same cause.