4 ms·

This happens in a lot of countries. It's unfortunate at best, malicious at worst.

wallflower 17y ago
Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 > [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote. Bruce Sterling foreshadows "Data Havens" "A data haven is a computer or a network that holds data protected from government action by both technical means (encryption) and location in a country that has either no laws, or poorly-enforced laws restricting use of data and no extradition treaties." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_haven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_haven
- rdtsc 17y ago
  In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
  - tsally 17y ago
    My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment. Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a password was quashed: http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf
    - jrockway 17y ago
      A good read, thanks for posting.
    - benatkin 17y ago
      The Wikipedia article has more info on that case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher In February of this year, the judge required him to provide unencrypted access to the drive.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    In the US, it appears that you cannot be compelled to give up your password. Even if you could be, it is possible that the obstruction of justice charge would carry a lighter sentence than whatever is on the disk would get you. (But of course, if you are at the point where your hardware is being seized, it's possible that the government already has enough evidence on you.)
  - gradschool 17y ago
    Theoretically, a password is protected by the fifth amendment only in very limited circumstances, basically when the mere knowledge of it would be evidence against you. If your equipment is seized legally with a court issued warrant, you'd normally be expected to disclose it. However, if your defense is that your system was compromised and encrypted files were put there by an attacker, there is an issue of self-incrimination and fifth amendment protections may apply. It would then be up to the judge to rule on it.(corrections welcome, IANAL)
    - Retric 17y ago
      I wonder if stating that the password it's self is incriminating information would also allow it to fall under Fifth Amendment protection. AKA, the password is a sentence that contains incriminating information. I it could be argued that pleading the fifth for every single question is allowed under the Fifth Amendment because what information you think might be incriminating is also incriminating information. AKA where on December 2, 1952 and you plead the fifth. But you are willing to say where you where on the December 1, 1952 and December 3, 1952.
      - deleted 17y ago
        [deleted]
      - evgen 17y ago
        This is a quick route to a contempt of court charge and the judge will let you spend some quality time with the folks in the local jail until you decide that being a smartass to someone who can send you directly to jail is a bad idea.
  - boredguy8 17y ago
    The password can be protected. The contents of what's protected by that password is not. So for instance, that you encrypted content with the password "ilikelittlechildren" can be protected. But that said content is thousands of instances of child pornography cannot be protected, and you can be required to (yourself) unencrypt the content even though you don't tell anyone your password.
  - jellicle 17y ago
    The most correct answer in the U.S. is that the question of whether a defendant can be forced to give up his password is still undecided. In the UK the government settled the question with a law making it a crime to withhold your password: http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/encryption/faqs/ http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/encryption/faqs/ The issue hasn't really come up in Canada. Some authorities have recommended a law similar to the UK's.
est 17y ago
Today CCP raided a datacenter in Shanghai and over 10k sites were offline. http://www.otaku.net.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7339 http://www.otaku.net.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7339

Example: 2009 April FBI raid on Core IP Dallas data center http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=546067 > [Core IP CEO] Simpson added that there were 50 businesses without access to email and data due to the raid. "If you run a datacenter, please be aware that in our great country, the FBI can come into your place of business at any time and take whatever they want, with no reason," he wrote. Bruce Sterling foreshadows "Data Havens" "A data haven is a computer or a network that holds data protected from government action by both technical means (encryption) and location in a country that has either no laws, or poorly-enforced laws restricting use of data and no extradition treaties." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_haven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_haven

rdtsc 17y ago
In case of encrypted data, can't the US government legally force one to disclose passwords following a raid? In other words they might raid a company, they find encrypted hard drives so they ask for passwords. Then does revealing passwords fall under "self-incriminating" or not revealing them fall under "obstructing justice"?
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- tsally 17y ago
  My understanding is that in the US, passwords fall under the 5th amendment. Here's an example where a subpoena ordering the defendant to enter in a password was quashed: http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf http://www.eff.org/files/Boucher.pdf
  - jrockway 17y ago
    A good read, thanks for posting.
  - benatkin 17y ago
    The Wikipedia article has more info on that case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Boucher In February of this year, the judge required him to provide unencrypted access to the drive.
- jrockway 17y ago
  In the US, it appears that you cannot be compelled to give up your password. Even if you could be, it is possible that the obstruction of justice charge would carry a lighter sentence than whatever is on the disk would get you. (But of course, if you are at the point where your hardware is being seized, it's possible that the government already has enough evidence on you.)
- gradschool 17y ago
  Theoretically, a password is protected by the fifth amendment only in very limited circumstances, basically when the mere knowledge of it would be evidence against you. If your equipment is seized legally with a court issued warrant, you'd normally be expected to disclose it. However, if your defense is that your system was compromised and encrypted files were put there by an attacker, there is an issue of self-incrimination and fifth amendment protections may apply. It would then be up to the judge to rule on it.(corrections welcome, IANAL)
  - Retric 17y ago
    I wonder if stating that the password it's self is incriminating information would also allow it to fall under Fifth Amendment protection. AKA, the password is a sentence that contains incriminating information. I it could be argued that pleading the fifth for every single question is allowed under the Fifth Amendment because what information you think might be incriminating is also incriminating information. AKA where on December 2, 1952 and you plead the fifth. But you are willing to say where you where on the December 1, 1952 and December 3, 1952.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
    - evgen 17y ago
      This is a quick route to a contempt of court charge and the judge will let you spend some quality time with the folks in the local jail until you decide that being a smartass to someone who can send you directly to jail is a bad idea.
- boredguy8 17y ago
  The password can be protected. The contents of what's protected by that password is not. So for instance, that you encrypted content with the password "ilikelittlechildren" can be protected. But that said content is thousands of instances of child pornography cannot be protected, and you can be required to (yourself) unencrypt the content even though you don't tell anyone your password.
- jellicle 17y ago
  The most correct answer in the U.S. is that the question of whether a defendant can be forced to give up his password is still undecided. In the UK the government settled the question with a law making it a crime to withhold your password: http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/encryption/faqs/ http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/encryption/faqs/ The issue hasn't really come up in Canada. Some authorities have recommended a law similar to the UK's.

est 17y ago

Today CCP raided a datacenter in Shanghai and over 10k sites were offline. http://www.otaku.net.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7339 http://www.otaku.net.cn/viewthread.php?tid=7339