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>now, more then ever, the transparency and accountability of governments has increased in response to many of those exact same services (Twitter/YouTube/Faceboo

>now, more then ever, the transparency and accountability of governments has increased in response to many of those exact same services (Twitter/YouTube/Facebook/Google). I'm skeptical. Sure, advocates for transparency have used these platforms, but that seems unrelated to these companies' mass collection of data. Not to mention that one of the biggest whistleblowers recently (Edward Snowden) revealed that these companies were complicit in NSA's not-at-all transparent surveillence.

lern_too_spel 11y ago
This post perfectly illustrates the "people are irrational" assertion. Snowden's documents (re-)revealed that these companies were involved in targeted surveillance for the FBI by way of NSLs, something that the companies had warned about for years. http://www.wired.com/2013/04/google-fights-nsl/ http://www.wired.com/2013/04/google-fights-nsl/ The new bit of information from Snowden was that the NSA could access data from the FBI, which none of the companies knew about, let alone were "complicit" in.
- scribu 11y ago
  So let me get this straight: 1. Corporation collects user data. 2. Government wants access to that data, in secret. 3. Corporation lets people know when the government accesses data about them. 4. Hurrah, the government is more transparent. If the corporation didn't collect the data in the first place, there would be nothing for the government to request access to, transparently or not.
  - lern_too_spel 11y ago
    Here is a perfect example of irrationality. These companies process data that the user wants them to process (emails and other conversations that the user can search from any of their devices). Not collecting that data would obviously (to everybody except irrational people like scribu) make those products impossible to implement. That same data that is so useful to the users is also useful to the FBI and anybody else investigating a person.
    - scribu 11y ago
      I don't understand how your claim (that users want the products that data collection enables) refutes my claim (that data collection has not helped with government transparency).
      - lern_too_spel 11y ago
        If your point is merely that "data collection has not helped with government transparency," I do not refute it (and I know of nobody who would -- there is no reason that Gmail nor banking nor even the price of tea in China would help with government transparency). That is, however, a rather inane point to make.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
        scribu 11y ago
        > I know of nobody who would Then you're forgetting about the guy up-thread: > accountability of governments has increased in response to many of those exact same services (Twitter/YouTube/Facebook/Google). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672999 But reading your first comment again, I realize that you were making a different point. Sorry.
    - tripzilch 11y ago
      > to everybody except irrational people like scribu please.
- hackuser 11y ago
  It's not just an issue of rationality. IIRC, a recent survey concluded that most Americans didn't know who Edward Snowden is.
rrss1122 11y ago
I think it is unrelated to their mass collection of data. But I also think this is an argument for why people put up with these services. It's not that they accept privacy infringement, it's that they are willing to put up with it to have an open communications platform.

lern_too_spel 11y ago

This post perfectly illustrates the "people are irrational" assertion. Snowden's documents (re-)revealed that these companies were involved in targeted surveillance for the FBI by way of NSLs, something that the companies had warned about for years. http://www.wired.com/2013/04/google-fights-nsl/ http://www.wired.com/2013/04/google-fights-nsl/ The new bit of information from Snowden was that the NSA could access data from the FBI, which none of the companies knew about, let alone were "complicit" in.

scribu 11y ago
So let me get this straight: 1. Corporation collects user data. 2. Government wants access to that data, in secret. 3. Corporation lets people know when the government accesses data about them. 4. Hurrah, the government is more transparent. If the corporation didn't collect the data in the first place, there would be nothing for the government to request access to, transparently or not.
- lern_too_spel 11y ago
  Here is a perfect example of irrationality. These companies process data that the user wants them to process (emails and other conversations that the user can search from any of their devices). Not collecting that data would obviously (to everybody except irrational people like scribu) make those products impossible to implement. That same data that is so useful to the users is also useful to the FBI and anybody else investigating a person.
  - scribu 11y ago
    I don't understand how your claim (that users want the products that data collection enables) refutes my claim (that data collection has not helped with government transparency).
    - lern_too_spel 11y ago
      If your point is merely that "data collection has not helped with government transparency," I do not refute it (and I know of nobody who would -- there is no reason that Gmail nor banking nor even the price of tea in China would help with government transparency). That is, however, a rather inane point to make.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - scribu 11y ago
        > I know of nobody who would Then you're forgetting about the guy up-thread: > accountability of governments has increased in response to many of those exact same services (Twitter/YouTube/Facebook/Google). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672999 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9672999 But reading your first comment again, I realize that you were making a different point. Sorry.
  - tripzilch 11y ago
    > to everybody except irrational people like scribu please.
hackuser 11y ago
It's not just an issue of rationality. IIRC, a recent survey concluded that most Americans didn't know who Edward Snowden is.

rrss1122 11y ago

I think it is unrelated to their mass collection of data. But I also think this is an argument for why people put up with these services. It's not that they accept privacy infringement, it's that they are willing to put up with it to have an open communications platform.