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> They look nice, I want to look nice. They feel powerful, I want to feel powerful. Men's shoes are boring, I don't want to be boring. I'm sorry, but that make

> They look nice, I want to look nice. They feel powerful, I want to feel powerful. Men's shoes are boring, I don't want to be boring. I'm sorry, but that makes very little sense. If you want to look nice then you need to go by what society judges as nice and society does not consider a man with heels to "look nice".

throwaway94105 11y ago
That's only true if you're wearing them out and trying to please others. Society doesn't inform my preferences at home nor does it see what I'm wearing behind closed doors. Plus, with the right body type and shoes, you too could look quite nice in heels. Or full drag. Except I'm not into that but you are free to do as you like. Edit: I haven't been able to post for an hour so I have nowhere else to put this: sorry Silverstorm I'm 6'3". Doesn't mean I don't like being taller though.
sjolsen 11y ago
You're making the assumption that by "nice," he means "what society judges as nice," rather than what he personally considers to look nice, and that assumption is almost certainly wrong.
wahnfrieden 11y ago
Some people dress for themselves or for a core few others. Lowest common denominator doesn't rule all valid aesthetics. Anyway one recent popular menswear designer, Rick Owens, wears heels: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg0ahygW5j1qazwkm.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg0ahygW5j1qazwkm.jpg
tjradcliffe 11y ago
> you need to go by what society judges as nice Why? You've been down-voted, probably because this assertion seems somewhere between weird and offensive to most people here, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe it. This is particularly relevant to HN because most of the people here are interested in innovation, and innovation comes from precisely deviating from the standards of society. As Henry Ford famously remarked, "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." This is the reception that innovators of all kinds get, and currently men's dress is incredibly restricted. We aren't quite stuck in Victorian days, but the diminishment of acceptable fashion choice for men in the past 200 years has been huge. In 1800 a man could still wear colourful clothing, jewelry, and makeup. Fifty years later, a man could wear clothes that would shock no-one if seen on the street today, and nothing else. I don't quite buy "the Enlightenment" as the whole answer, or even part of the answer, but there is no doubt that cultural shifts around that time had the effect of putting all men in uniform clothing. Think about that for a minute: women are allowed to wear almost anything today. Men are given a tiny number of acceptable choices, and no one much minds. I'm considered extravagant because I sometimes wear a bright red blazer to the theatre, which would be permitted if I were gay, but when I show up with my girlfriend it gets me insulted. 200 years ago men who were a hell of a lot more manly than me wore far more extravagant clothing and no one batted an eye (except maybe a few women who thought they were particularly attractive dressed like that.) This is a lousy situation for straight men in the modern world: we deserve to be more than uniformed ciphers in the public eye, and rejecting society's judgement of what looks nice is a necessary step to take, just as rejecting society's judgement of what suitable entertainment is was necessary to the radio and film industry, rejecting society's judgement of what suitable travel technology is was necessary to the automobile and aircraft industry was, and so on. And you better believe that conservatives were frequently strongly against those innovations as well. Innovation is driven by people with the courage to reject society's judgement and replace it with their own, and we should honour that courage, not denigrate it.
- Crito 11y ago
  > "You've been down-voted, probably because this assertion seems somewhere between weird and offensive to most people here, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe it." I have come to believe it because I have come to realize that it is the only notion of "nice" that has real utility. I only wish somebody had explained that to me earlier in life. I spent too much of my youth disadvantaging myself socially by failing to prioritize how I present myself to others.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > I have come to believe it because I have come to realize that it is the only notion of "nice" that has real utility. Utility means that something produces (directly or indirectly) satisfaction for the person making the decision. Doing what society judges as nice has instrumental utility, in that it can help you get better responses from society, which either can produce utility for you directly or help get others to do things which produce utility for you. Doing what pleases yourself -- including aesthetically as in favoring what "looks nice" to you -- has direct and immediate utility, however. Both are "real" utility. Which is greater utility will vary considerably.
    - Crito 11y ago
      Put it this way, I find that what other people think about me has more impact on my life than what sort of cloth is hanging from my body. I think that anyone who actually stops to consider this, actually weighs how their dress effects how the rest of society interacts with them, will arrive on the same conclusion (unless they have some serious issues to work out). If cloth honestly has more of an effect on you how other people treat you, you've probably got a disorder.
rhizome 11y ago
I'm sorry, but that makes very little sense. Which is a testament to its power, since a valid reason broke your brain's entire sense of "reasonable." You don't get it because you can't get it, you simply don't have the cognitive capacity for the idea, or else you would have allowed for it to make some sense, even if it didn't appeal to you.

throwaway94105 11y ago

That's only true if you're wearing them out and trying to please others. Society doesn't inform my preferences at home nor does it see what I'm wearing behind closed doors. Plus, with the right body type and shoes, you too could look quite nice in heels. Or full drag. Except I'm not into that but you are free to do as you like. Edit: I haven't been able to post for an hour so I have nowhere else to put this: sorry Silverstorm I'm 6'3". Doesn't mean I don't like being taller though.

sjolsen 11y ago

You're making the assumption that by "nice," he means "what society judges as nice," rather than what he personally considers to look nice, and that assumption is almost certainly wrong.

wahnfrieden 11y ago

Some people dress for themselves or for a core few others. Lowest common denominator doesn't rule all valid aesthetics. Anyway one recent popular menswear designer, Rick Owens, wears heels: http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg0ahygW5j1qazwkm.jpg http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg0ahygW5j1qazwkm.jpg

tjradcliffe 11y ago

> you need to go by what society judges as nice Why? You've been down-voted, probably because this assertion seems somewhere between weird and offensive to most people here, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe it. This is particularly relevant to HN because most of the people here are interested in innovation, and innovation comes from precisely deviating from the standards of society. As Henry Ford famously remarked, "If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse." This is the reception that innovators of all kinds get, and currently men's dress is incredibly restricted. We aren't quite stuck in Victorian days, but the diminishment of acceptable fashion choice for men in the past 200 years has been huge. In 1800 a man could still wear colourful clothing, jewelry, and makeup. Fifty years later, a man could wear clothes that would shock no-one if seen on the street today, and nothing else. I don't quite buy "the Enlightenment" as the whole answer, or even part of the answer, but there is no doubt that cultural shifts around that time had the effect of putting all men in uniform clothing. Think about that for a minute: women are allowed to wear almost anything today. Men are given a tiny number of acceptable choices, and no one much minds. I'm considered extravagant because I sometimes wear a bright red blazer to the theatre, which would be permitted if I were gay, but when I show up with my girlfriend it gets me insulted. 200 years ago men who were a hell of a lot more manly than me wore far more extravagant clothing and no one batted an eye (except maybe a few women who thought they were particularly attractive dressed like that.) This is a lousy situation for straight men in the modern world: we deserve to be more than uniformed ciphers in the public eye, and rejecting society's judgement of what looks nice is a necessary step to take, just as rejecting society's judgement of what suitable entertainment is was necessary to the radio and film industry, rejecting society's judgement of what suitable travel technology is was necessary to the automobile and aircraft industry was, and so on. And you better believe that conservatives were frequently strongly against those innovations as well. Innovation is driven by people with the courage to reject society's judgement and replace it with their own, and we should honour that courage, not denigrate it.

Crito 11y ago
> "You've been down-voted, probably because this assertion seems somewhere between weird and offensive to most people here, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you believe it." I have come to believe it because I have come to realize that it is the only notion of "nice" that has real utility. I only wish somebody had explained that to me earlier in life. I spent too much of my youth disadvantaging myself socially by failing to prioritize how I present myself to others.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > I have come to believe it because I have come to realize that it is the only notion of "nice" that has real utility. Utility means that something produces (directly or indirectly) satisfaction for the person making the decision. Doing what society judges as nice has instrumental utility, in that it can help you get better responses from society, which either can produce utility for you directly or help get others to do things which produce utility for you. Doing what pleases yourself -- including aesthetically as in favoring what "looks nice" to you -- has direct and immediate utility, however. Both are "real" utility. Which is greater utility will vary considerably.
  - Crito 11y ago
    Put it this way, I find that what other people think about me has more impact on my life than what sort of cloth is hanging from my body. I think that anyone who actually stops to consider this, actually weighs how their dress effects how the rest of society interacts with them, will arrive on the same conclusion (unless they have some serious issues to work out). If cloth honestly has more of an effect on you how other people treat you, you've probably got a disorder.

rhizome 11y ago

I'm sorry, but that makes very little sense. Which is a testament to its power, since a valid reason broke your brain's entire sense of "reasonable." You don't get it because you can't get it, you simply don't have the cognitive capacity for the idea, or else you would have allowed for it to make some sense, even if it didn't appeal to you.