4 ms·

When I see a woman wearing heels, I just think of the damage she is doing to her feet and how uncomfortable she must be. I am not sure why I should be appreciat

When I see a woman wearing heels, I just think of the damage she is doing to her feet and how uncomfortable she must be. I am not sure why I should be appreciative of her efforts.

throwaway94105 11y ago
You actually are appreciating her efforts with your thoughts. Appreciate doesn't mean value/like necessarily, it can mean to understand the implications of in a neutral-preference manner. Regardless, there are many men who appreciate heels in the other sense (sexy, etc) who give no thought to the effort required to wear them. Wearing them myself lets me do both :)
- jacobolus 11y ago
  I mostly feel sorry for women who feel pressured to wear heels even though they might not personally want to. Likewise for makeup, jewelry, plastic surgery, black women with straightened hair, bald men with hair transplants, men in suits on hot days, people eating too little because they feel pressured to stay thin, etc. When people choose to do/wear those things because they like them, or choose to have extensive piercings or tattoos, etc., more power to them. In other words, the problem for me is with social expectations that discriminate against people who don’t put extensive money, time, discomfort, and sometimes injury on the line to look the way society expects.
  - detcader 11y ago
    Exactly. But you will be told that you are policing choices, restricting freedoms, or even oppressing people for pointing out that social expectations exist. Because of the natural process of selection, the ideology of social neoliberalism has reached its peak in the last 20 years. Choices of the individual are reflexively defended in every case, because the framing of individuality won; it was the framing most rewarded by those social groups with the most power.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Can you please point out an example of someone being accused of oppressing people for pointing out that social expectations exist? If that is so widespread, I'm sure the web will provide plenty to link to. I'm asking because I feel you and I live in a different reality. The concept of gender roles and its restrictions on free personal choice is, as far as I know, completely accepted by the mainstream, and while I'm sure there are dissenters, the idea that they are the dominant opinion is baffling to me. HuffPost, not exactly a fringe publication, has had a dozen or so posts on it the past week alone: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gender-roles/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gender-roles/ This is not to say gender roles or other social expectations are dead - of course not, they're extremely powerful. But I certainly don't agree that it's taboo to point it out.
      - detcader 11y ago
        Sure, here's a single example [0]. It's true that in principle I should have provided examples to begin with... [0] http://feministcurrent.com/9226/johns-are-now-an-oppressed-sexual-minority/ http://feministcurrent.com/9226/johns-are-now-an-oppressed-s...
        icebraining 11y ago
        I have to admit I don't understand your example. The only people being accused of oppression are the legislators of the bill in question. I don't see anyone being accused of oppression for pointing out that social expectations exist. Who exactly is doing such pointing in that example?
        detcader 11y ago
        Feminists point out the social expection of the availability of women's bodies for use. They have been and will continue to be accused of oppressing and marginalizing johns. It's a straightforward situation in which johns are identified as engaging in unnecessarily "taboo" sexual behavior by society, just like lesbians and gay men, and thus you should afford them the same consideration and lack of criticism if you are a Good Liberal. Feminists who point out objectification and the expectation of sexual access are slapped with the label "SWERFs" (sex-worker exclusionary radical feminists). Meghan Murphy writes quite a lot about it so see her other pieces.
- detcader 11y ago
  Do you or do you not believe in the gender socialization of women? Do you believe femininity, as a culturally constructed set of expectations, is a neutral and non-destructive, or positive and constructive, historical event in human history, or that it is destructive? Or do you believe that femininity is a natural psychological feature in the minds of women?
AmVess 11y ago
My girlfriend wear heels fairly often; frequently enough to make me ask about the comfort of them since she never complains about them, and she's no glutton for punishment. I cannot remember the specific details, or even pointedly vague ones, but she prefers heels with a stiff platform base of right around an inch, and an actual heel height of right around 3-inches or so. No pointy toes, just the curved ones. This is the style she wears; only the color changes. She loves other styles, but doesn't wear them due to the pain involved. She has lots of 'bootie' styles with lower heels, and plenty of sharp-looking standard Oxford styles with a small heel. Her feet aren't beat up and she doesn't complain about pain unless she's trying to con me into a foot rub. I can see what she's talking about. The lowish heel doesn't force the toes into a wedge which isn't there to begin with due to the non-pointy nature of the front of the shoes she wears, and the firm platform base means that every part of her leg from the knees down aren't fighting to keep themselves aligned on a platform that can be fairly flexible.

When I see a woman wearing heels, I just think of the damage she is doing to her feet and how uncomfortable she must be. I am not sure why I should be appreciative of her efforts.

throwaway94105 11y ago

You actually are appreciating her efforts with your thoughts. Appreciate doesn't mean value/like necessarily, it can mean to understand the implications of in a neutral-preference manner. Regardless, there are many men who appreciate heels in the other sense (sexy, etc) who give no thought to the effort required to wear them. Wearing them myself lets me do both :)

jacobolus 11y ago
I mostly feel sorry for women who feel pressured to wear heels even though they might not personally want to. Likewise for makeup, jewelry, plastic surgery, black women with straightened hair, bald men with hair transplants, men in suits on hot days, people eating too little because they feel pressured to stay thin, etc. When people choose to do/wear those things because they like them, or choose to have extensive piercings or tattoos, etc., more power to them. In other words, the problem for me is with social expectations that discriminate against people who don’t put extensive money, time, discomfort, and sometimes injury on the line to look the way society expects.
- detcader 11y ago
  Exactly. But you will be told that you are policing choices, restricting freedoms, or even oppressing people for pointing out that social expectations exist. Because of the natural process of selection, the ideology of social neoliberalism has reached its peak in the last 20 years. Choices of the individual are reflexively defended in every case, because the framing of individuality won; it was the framing most rewarded by those social groups with the most power.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Can you please point out an example of someone being accused of oppressing people for pointing out that social expectations exist? If that is so widespread, I'm sure the web will provide plenty to link to. I'm asking because I feel you and I live in a different reality. The concept of gender roles and its restrictions on free personal choice is, as far as I know, completely accepted by the mainstream, and while I'm sure there are dissenters, the idea that they are the dominant opinion is baffling to me. HuffPost, not exactly a fringe publication, has had a dozen or so posts on it the past week alone: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gender-roles/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/gender-roles/ This is not to say gender roles or other social expectations are dead - of course not, they're extremely powerful. But I certainly don't agree that it's taboo to point it out.
    - detcader 11y ago
      Sure, here's a single example [0]. It's true that in principle I should have provided examples to begin with... [0] http://feministcurrent.com/9226/johns-are-now-an-oppressed-sexual-minority/ http://feministcurrent.com/9226/johns-are-now-an-oppressed-s...
      - icebraining 11y ago
        I have to admit I don't understand your example. The only people being accused of oppression are the legislators of the bill in question. I don't see anyone being accused of oppression for pointing out that social expectations exist. Who exactly is doing such pointing in that example?
        detcader 11y ago
        Feminists point out the social expection of the availability of women's bodies for use. They have been and will continue to be accused of oppressing and marginalizing johns. It's a straightforward situation in which johns are identified as engaging in unnecessarily "taboo" sexual behavior by society, just like lesbians and gay men, and thus you should afford them the same consideration and lack of criticism if you are a Good Liberal. Feminists who point out objectification and the expectation of sexual access are slapped with the label "SWERFs" (sex-worker exclusionary radical feminists). Meghan Murphy writes quite a lot about it so see her other pieces.
detcader 11y ago
Do you or do you not believe in the gender socialization of women? Do you believe femininity, as a culturally constructed set of expectations, is a neutral and non-destructive, or positive and constructive, historical event in human history, or that it is destructive? Or do you believe that femininity is a natural psychological feature in the minds of women?

AmVess 11y ago

My girlfriend wear heels fairly often; frequently enough to make me ask about the comfort of them since she never complains about them, and she's no glutton for punishment. I cannot remember the specific details, or even pointedly vague ones, but she prefers heels with a stiff platform base of right around an inch, and an actual heel height of right around 3-inches or so. No pointy toes, just the curved ones. This is the style she wears; only the color changes. She loves other styles, but doesn't wear them due to the pain involved. She has lots of 'bootie' styles with lower heels, and plenty of sharp-looking standard Oxford styles with a small heel. Her feet aren't beat up and she doesn't complain about pain unless she's trying to con me into a foot rub. I can see what she's talking about. The lowish heel doesn't force the toes into a wedge which isn't there to begin with due to the non-pointy nature of the front of the shoes she wears, and the firm platform base means that every part of her leg from the knees down aren't fighting to keep themselves aligned on a platform that can be fairly flexible.