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I downvoted you because arguing that managers are unnecessary is so naive and uninformed as to make me suspect that you're trolling. That's like saying that a

I downvoted you because arguing that managers are unnecessary is so naive and uninformed as to make me suspect that you're trolling. That's like saying that a film doesn't need a director. Well maybe in theory you could make a film without one but that's not the best way to go about it.

jnbiche 11y ago
A number of successful companies disagree: 1. Zappos: http://www.businessinsider.com/tony-hsieh-self-management-memo-to-zappos-employees-2015-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/tony-hsieh-self-management-me... 2. Medium: http://firstround.com/review/How-Medium-is-building-a-new-kind-of-company-with-no-managers/ http://firstround.com/review/How-Medium-is-building-a-new-ki... 3. Valve: https://managing-essentials.com/valve-software-successful-self-organized-and-bossless-company https://managing-essentials.com/valve-software-successful-se...
- bjelkeman-again 11y ago
  They are the far outliers. Very hard to achieve in my experience.
  - fapjacks 11y ago
    Since the enormous vast majority of people only have experience working in companies that would never (and definitely have never) tried a flat organizational structure, I think this is kind of a disingenuous statement. From the outside those companies do look like far outliers. But I have a suspicion that hierarchy is only extremely relevant without technology. What I mean here is that technology is a great organizational "flattener" and I think since technology like this is still in its infancy, we can't really make a blanket statement like "this is very hard to achieve". Obviously, you're right to some degree, but I think that is only an artifact of technology not yet having revolutionized "the organization".
    - rhc2104 11y ago
      Stripe is an example of a company that prided itself on a manager-less structure, but then converted to having management.
      - fapjacks 11y ago
        Sure, but the same can be said for organizations that were once hierarchical, but then went flat.
- reagency 11y ago
  Zappos had managers for over a decade before recently starting an experiment to go manager-free. Medium is a tiny company. Valve...had some interesting claims surface when their structure was discussed here. Such as a shadow management structure.
kabdib 11y ago
I like to make a distinction between managers and leaders. - Leaders get a project done. They may or may not be managers. They think about technical problems, they write code, they organize teams and answer questions, they write design documents, they communicate technical stuff to other teams and managers. In some companies these are PMs (but the meaning of PM has been devalued to "someone who does non-technical project management, like bug tracking and scheduling"). - Managers deal with people. They write reviews, they fire people, the might hire people. They do donkey work like finding office space or ordering hardware or making sure that people get compensated properly. Those are two different jobs, and they're often conflated.
- jacques_chester 11y ago
  And which of these is a True Scotsman?
- neverartful 11y ago
  Good points. Another distinction is that managers are named by decree from other managers. Leaders, by definition, must have followers and they typically will only follow those that they trust and that have earned their respect (not by decree).

jnbiche 11y ago

A number of successful companies disagree: 1. Zappos: http://www.businessinsider.com/tony-hsieh-self-management-memo-to-zappos-employees-2015-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/tony-hsieh-self-management-me... 2. Medium: http://firstround.com/review/How-Medium-is-building-a-new-kind-of-company-with-no-managers/ http://firstround.com/review/How-Medium-is-building-a-new-ki... 3. Valve: https://managing-essentials.com/valve-software-successful-self-organized-and-bossless-company https://managing-essentials.com/valve-software-successful-se...

bjelkeman-again 11y ago
They are the far outliers. Very hard to achieve in my experience.
- fapjacks 11y ago
  Since the enormous vast majority of people only have experience working in companies that would never (and definitely have never) tried a flat organizational structure, I think this is kind of a disingenuous statement. From the outside those companies do look like far outliers. But I have a suspicion that hierarchy is only extremely relevant without technology. What I mean here is that technology is a great organizational "flattener" and I think since technology like this is still in its infancy, we can't really make a blanket statement like "this is very hard to achieve". Obviously, you're right to some degree, but I think that is only an artifact of technology not yet having revolutionized "the organization".
  - rhc2104 11y ago
    Stripe is an example of a company that prided itself on a manager-less structure, but then converted to having management.
    - fapjacks 11y ago
      Sure, but the same can be said for organizations that were once hierarchical, but then went flat.
reagency 11y ago
Zappos had managers for over a decade before recently starting an experiment to go manager-free. Medium is a tiny company. Valve...had some interesting claims surface when their structure was discussed here. Such as a shadow management structure.

kabdib 11y ago

I like to make a distinction between managers and leaders. - Leaders get a project done. They may or may not be managers. They think about technical problems, they write code, they organize teams and answer questions, they write design documents, they communicate technical stuff to other teams and managers. In some companies these are PMs (but the meaning of PM has been devalued to "someone who does non-technical project management, like bug tracking and scheduling"). - Managers deal with people. They write reviews, they fire people, the might hire people. They do donkey work like finding office space or ordering hardware or making sure that people get compensated properly. Those are two different jobs, and they're often conflated.

jacques_chester 11y ago
And which of these is a True Scotsman?
neverartful 11y ago
Good points. Another distinction is that managers are named by decree from other managers. Leaders, by definition, must have followers and they typically will only follow those that they trust and that have earned their respect (not by decree).