6 ms·

Well, "better shot" means not having to work as hard to succeed, so what you are saying supports the idea that one should prefer to get an education. The more

by Retra 11y ago

Well, "better shot" means not having to work as hard to succeed, so what you are saying supports the idea that one should prefer to get an education. The more relevant question is this: is it easier to succeed without an education than it is to get an education?

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> The more relevant question is this: is it easier to succeed without an education than it is to get an education? In IT? I'd argue without, most definitely. For example, no one teaches DevOps, and a CS degree would've been a waste while doing it.
- Retra 11y ago
  I can say that I'd probably never have used a unix-like computer if my CS department hadn't put it in the curriculum. I'd have probably never learned Python if it hadn't been homework. I'd have spent far too long struggling to learn C++ on Windows machines, and achieved not much else. Without an education, you're in a vast sea of options, and little means to tell what you are capable of. Of course, if you already have a job, what difference does it make? You aren't going to learn DevOps sitting on your laptop at home, either. So of course, if you assume the conclusion, the means don't matter.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I guess my point is that theres a disconnect between what you're taught in any sort of formal education program and the environment you're going to enter in the tech workplace, and that if you have the option, on the job training is going to be far superior to any classes you take in a CS track.
    - Retra 11y ago
      It'll make you better at that particular job than a CS degree would, but it won't make you better at CS. Or as the saying goes: "Education is for those who give orders; training is for those who take them."
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Odd. I have no formal education, but I've held several management titles, including founder and VP on occasion. To think you need a college education to lead or, as you said, "give orders" is preposterous.
        Retra 11y ago
        I didn't say you needed it. Nor does having a title make you good at the job.
sanswork 11y ago
I've "succeeded" in programming without even a HS degree but it happened with a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time to meet the right people to move me up the ladder. If I had to do it all over again I'd get the degree because I'm not sure I'd be as lucky the second time around. Even now after having worked as a programmer for 15 years and as a department head or founder for 7 of those years I'm planning on starting back on a CS program next year just to have the experience of having done it and the chance to focus on studying topics I wouldn't normally think of in my day to day.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Someone who I regard as a 10x developer suggested https://projecteuler.net/ https://projecteuler.net/ as a substitute for a traditional CS program. Highly recommend it. "Project Euler is a series of challenging mathematical/computer programming problems that will require more than just mathematical insights to solve. Although mathematics will help you arrive at elegant and efficient methods, the use of a computer and programming skills will be required to solve most problems. The motivation for starting Project Euler, and its continuation, is to provide a platform for the inquiring mind to delve into unfamiliar areas and learn new concepts in a fun and recreational context."
  - sanswork 11y ago
    Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I went to start working through the problems it was in offline mode and I ended up putting it aside until they were back up and completely forgot about it. I'll definitely take another look.

by Retra 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago

> The more relevant question is this: is it easier to succeed without an education than it is to get an education? In IT? I'd argue without, most definitely. For example, no one teaches DevOps, and a CS degree would've been a waste while doing it.

Retra 11y ago
I can say that I'd probably never have used a unix-like computer if my CS department hadn't put it in the curriculum. I'd have probably never learned Python if it hadn't been homework. I'd have spent far too long struggling to learn C++ on Windows machines, and achieved not much else. Without an education, you're in a vast sea of options, and little means to tell what you are capable of. Of course, if you already have a job, what difference does it make? You aren't going to learn DevOps sitting on your laptop at home, either. So of course, if you assume the conclusion, the means don't matter.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I guess my point is that theres a disconnect between what you're taught in any sort of formal education program and the environment you're going to enter in the tech workplace, and that if you have the option, on the job training is going to be far superior to any classes you take in a CS track.
  - Retra 11y ago
    It'll make you better at that particular job than a CS degree would, but it won't make you better at CS. Or as the saying goes: "Education is for those who give orders; training is for those who take them."
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Odd. I have no formal education, but I've held several management titles, including founder and VP on occasion. To think you need a college education to lead or, as you said, "give orders" is preposterous.
      - Retra 11y ago
        I didn't say you needed it. Nor does having a title make you good at the job.

sanswork 11y ago

I've "succeeded" in programming without even a HS degree but it happened with a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time to meet the right people to move me up the ladder. If I had to do it all over again I'd get the degree because I'm not sure I'd be as lucky the second time around. Even now after having worked as a programmer for 15 years and as a department head or founder for 7 of those years I'm planning on starting back on a CS program next year just to have the experience of having done it and the chance to focus on studying topics I wouldn't normally think of in my day to day.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Someone who I regard as a 10x developer suggested https://projecteuler.net/ https://projecteuler.net/ as a substitute for a traditional CS program. Highly recommend it. "Project Euler is a series of challenging mathematical/computer programming problems that will require more than just mathematical insights to solve. Although mathematics will help you arrive at elegant and efficient methods, the use of a computer and programming skills will be required to solve most problems. The motivation for starting Project Euler, and its continuation, is to provide a platform for the inquiring mind to delve into unfamiliar areas and learn new concepts in a fun and recreational context."
- sanswork 11y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion. Last time I went to start working through the problems it was in offline mode and I ended up putting it aside until they were back up and completely forgot about it. I'll definitely take another look.