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This good article should be paired with pg's great essay http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html that has similar ideas. "One of th

by Jun8 11y ago

This good article should be paired with pg's great essay http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html http://www.paulgraham.com/hs.html that has similar ideas. "One of the most dangerous illusions you get from school is the idea that doing great things requires a lot of discipline. Most subjects are taught in such a boring way that it's only by discipline that you can flog yourself through them. So I was surprised when, early in college, I read a quote by Wittgenstein saying that he had no self-discipline and had never been able to deny himself anything, not even a cup of coffee."

jotm 11y ago
I think you could've chosen a better example. Wittgenstein was smart, but he never did anything focused precisely because of his lack of discipline. He just poured all his thoughts on paper for others to figure out. Every book on and by famous/rich/successful people I've ever read touches on the subject on discipline and it can all be summed up with this: motivation, curiosity and drive fade away - in the end, only discipline is left to get you through the hardest mile.
- gooseus 11y ago
  I second this... if there is anything I regret in life it is my contemptuous attitude toward discipline through my younger years, which has lead to lots of bad habits in adult years. I'd be willing to bet that when all those failed startup people spend a good 5-10 years thinking some more about their failures, the number 1 reason won't be "product-market fit", it'll be a lack of discipline in one or more areas (development, spending, sales).
  - noobie 11y ago
    What exactly do you guys mean by discipline? Like, sticking to a studying schedule even though the process is repetitive and such?
    - gooseus 11y ago
      Discipline is the muscle that needs to be worked so that when shit gets heavy, you don't just drop it. Really it's about developing the behavioral pathways in your brain, your second nature if you will. For me, when something hard comes up, I automatically try to find a way around it or some way to accomplish the goal without dealing with the hard thing. This is great for my creative problem solving skills since I'm able to automatically think outside the box and find workarounds to hard problems that can't feasibly be worked through. However, when there is no workaround, actually convincing myself to do the hard work is extremely tough... my brain keeps automatically pausing and trying to find an easier way around and in those pauses I find it very easy to be distracted and a reason to put off the hard work just a little longer. So yeah, sticking to a studying schedule would be a good way to exercise that discipline.
    - jotm 11y ago
      By discipline, I mean the willpower to go on when all motivators have failed but the logic still says that the current path is correct. When you know that a task needs to be done, yet your body and your brain tell you to leave it for later, that they're too tired, that it's not worth it, etc. When you know a task needs to be done to achieve the goal yet most of your colleagues and even part your own brain tells you to stop because... reasons, excuses. I don't know how else to explain it, you just don't stop until the goal is reached, and long before that, motivation, excitement, curiosity, drive, and whatever else emotional factors people have will most likely have stopped...
crusso 11y ago
I think that the research shows that self-discipline (or delayed gratification) is the single best indicator of future success in life. http://jamesclear.com/delayed-gratification http://jamesclear.com/delayed-gratification
- facepalm 11y ago
  Often when the Marshmallow study is being quoted, they leave out half of the story. Which is that the kids who managed to not eat the Marshmallow didn't do it via iron discipline. They managed it by distracting themselves with other things (for example reciting poems or whatever). So maybe it was more about imagination than self discipline. Or you could say it was about self discipline, but self discipline is not what we traditionally think it is.
  - crusso 11y ago
    It doesn't matter what coping techniques they used. What matters is that they accomplished the task in a way that showed increased discipline. Additionally, the marshmallow study isn't the only research that shows this effect.
- learnstats2 11y ago
  That same page shows that displaying self-discipline/delayed gratification as a child depends on whether people who have authority over you act in a reliably honest way.
Dewie3 11y ago
Self-discipline is a crutch for weak minds.

by Jun8 11y ago

jotm 11y ago

I think you could've chosen a better example. Wittgenstein was smart, but he never did anything focused precisely because of his lack of discipline. He just poured all his thoughts on paper for others to figure out. Every book on and by famous/rich/successful people I've ever read touches on the subject on discipline and it can all be summed up with this: motivation, curiosity and drive fade away - in the end, only discipline is left to get you through the hardest mile.

gooseus 11y ago
I second this... if there is anything I regret in life it is my contemptuous attitude toward discipline through my younger years, which has lead to lots of bad habits in adult years. I'd be willing to bet that when all those failed startup people spend a good 5-10 years thinking some more about their failures, the number 1 reason won't be "product-market fit", it'll be a lack of discipline in one or more areas (development, spending, sales).
- noobie 11y ago
  What exactly do you guys mean by discipline? Like, sticking to a studying schedule even though the process is repetitive and such?
  - gooseus 11y ago
    Discipline is the muscle that needs to be worked so that when shit gets heavy, you don't just drop it. Really it's about developing the behavioral pathways in your brain, your second nature if you will. For me, when something hard comes up, I automatically try to find a way around it or some way to accomplish the goal without dealing with the hard thing. This is great for my creative problem solving skills since I'm able to automatically think outside the box and find workarounds to hard problems that can't feasibly be worked through. However, when there is no workaround, actually convincing myself to do the hard work is extremely tough... my brain keeps automatically pausing and trying to find an easier way around and in those pauses I find it very easy to be distracted and a reason to put off the hard work just a little longer. So yeah, sticking to a studying schedule would be a good way to exercise that discipline.
  - jotm 11y ago
    By discipline, I mean the willpower to go on when all motivators have failed but the logic still says that the current path is correct. When you know that a task needs to be done, yet your body and your brain tell you to leave it for later, that they're too tired, that it's not worth it, etc. When you know a task needs to be done to achieve the goal yet most of your colleagues and even part your own brain tells you to stop because... reasons, excuses. I don't know how else to explain it, you just don't stop until the goal is reached, and long before that, motivation, excitement, curiosity, drive, and whatever else emotional factors people have will most likely have stopped...

crusso 11y ago

I think that the research shows that self-discipline (or delayed gratification) is the single best indicator of future success in life. http://jamesclear.com/delayed-gratification http://jamesclear.com/delayed-gratification

facepalm 11y ago
Often when the Marshmallow study is being quoted, they leave out half of the story. Which is that the kids who managed to not eat the Marshmallow didn't do it via iron discipline. They managed it by distracting themselves with other things (for example reciting poems or whatever). So maybe it was more about imagination than self discipline. Or you could say it was about self discipline, but self discipline is not what we traditionally think it is.
- crusso 11y ago
  It doesn't matter what coping techniques they used. What matters is that they accomplished the task in a way that showed increased discipline. Additionally, the marshmallow study isn't the only research that shows this effect.
learnstats2 11y ago
That same page shows that displaying self-discipline/delayed gratification as a child depends on whether people who have authority over you act in a reliably honest way.

Dewie3 11y ago

Self-discipline is a crutch for weak minds.