29 ms·

Visual Studio Online Supports Cross-Platform Development

226 points by dstaheli 11y ago

baldfat 11y ago
> Microsoft provided me both a PC laptop and a MacBook for my job and hired me to coordinate the effort to enable and better support non-traditional Microsoft developers (i.e. developers that use something other than C# and .NET technologies) to easily design, build, test and deploy their software and systems solutions, especially to the cloud. This is a major change in terms of what I would hear from a Microsoft Blog Post on Software Development Tools and especially Visual Studio.
- NicoJuicy 11y ago
  Not only that... But i am a C# developer and now i can use tools like bower and gulp ( already knew them fyi). I seriously love this.. I am afraid though that a lot of current .Net developers won't like this ( colleagues and because vNext is more command line based )
josteink 11y ago
The fact that I'm now complaining about how FreeBSD is poorly supported compared to other Unixes like Linux and OSX really is quite amazing. 5 years ago I wouldn't even be surprised if MS websites intentionally didn't work in browsers not IE. Now this.
- x5n1 11y ago
  Microsoft realizes that they don't have a monopoly on this stuff and many other tools are just as good and as useful as theirs. So they had to actually innovate. That being said I would still not use Microsoft as getting Windows is a headache compared to getting OS X. I recently wanted to deploy my QT App on Windows and found out my old Vista box will not suffice for MVC2013, I need Windows 7. My Mac from 2009 is still good it can get 10.10, but the Vista box from the same time is SOL when it comes to compiling Chromium. When Windows is as free as OS X and Linux, then I might considering developing on their platform.
  - darklajid 11y ago
    Now, from one free software nerd¹ to another: It's not helping to kick this down. Arguably Microsoft opened quite a lot of stuff recently. After ASP.Net and .Net Core I remember WCF, Visual Studio Code and VSO offers like this (plus the git integration). Can we please see the good here instead of asking for everything (and unrealistic stuff, tbh), now? ① Liberate your documents or Fosdem t-shirt is the common setup here..
    - x5n1 11y ago
      Microsoft is following its own strategy none of this stuff is positive for free software. It's just a way to enter and stay relevant in a market where free software whether that's android or linux has already won. Microsoft is not doing it for us, it's doing it for itself to stay relevant. Am I thankful, no not really. I would prefer Microsoft go away and the Unixes prevail. This just ensures the market stays fragmented with Windows leading the user base. Despite the fact that there are competitors out there good enough to replace most of it.
      - slg 11y ago
        Microsoft is a business and openness is a business strategy. I don't see the problem with that. I also don't think it is unique for any of the big technology companies. Do you think OS X is Unix based because Apple loves openness?
      - jfuhrman 11y ago
        Fragmentation is harmful when it's mostly similar ones with minor incompatibilities, like ten thousand Linux distros and Window managers. Not to mention the various stock browser versions on Android phones. Across a market, having two to five differently implemented competitive products results in innovation instead of stagnation with just one.
      - stephengillie 11y ago
        Does it matter, the motive of the employees and executives at Microsoft? If you do something for the wrong reason, is the work tainted? Or is everyone who does your work on your side, regardless of who or why?
robertodelori 11y ago
It's absolutelly amazing to see, how MS is evolving. Few more steps like that and I really might consider switching back to Windows and giving WinPhone a try...
- pjmlp 11y ago
  The WinPhone software stack is quite good.
- v0lta 11y ago
  I did some basic WinPhone development (i'm mostly on linux/unix) and was pleasantly surprised by the smoothness of the tools. I recommend to check it out by building some simple stuff.
- skrowl 11y ago
  What exactly can you do from your (presumably since it's HN) Mac that you can't do from Windows that's preventing you from switching now?
  - zeendo 11y ago
    Probably iOS development?
    - miguelrochefort 11y ago
      I've been doing iOS development on a PC for years.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Not the OP, but for me: use Unix. Cygwin is not a sufficient alternative to having an actual, working Unix that works as I expect it to when I use it, with a decent terminal emulator on top of it. (PowerShell is both non-substitutable and inferior.) Windows-the-desktop is fine, though I don't like it. Windows-the-workstation is, even with the plus that is Visual Studio, still a considerable distance behind even Linux, to say nothing of OS X.
ohitsdom 11y ago
Love the new Microsoft. For small side projects/prototypes, I have tended to not use version control (I know, the horror). I just stumbled across their free private repo storage this morning, and it's going to be a huge improvement in my at-home workflow.
- baldfat 11y ago
  Single User Git was the best thing I have done. I have backups and documentation.
  - ossreality 11y ago
    What is "Single User Git"?
- georgemcbay 11y ago
  bitbucket also supports free private repos. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't try or use this option (I've always been a fan of most of Microsoft's dev tools), but I've been using bitbucket as my "side project" source code control system for free (incl. private repos) for years.
  - ohitsdom 11y ago
    Nice, didn't know that. I'm a .NET guy though and have only used SVN and TFS at work, so now I can use TFS at home as well. Probably should learn Git with my next project...
    - giancarlostoro 11y ago
      Git comes with Visual Studio since Visual Studio 2013, so it's a lot more seamless.
      - tracker1 11y ago
        Though iirc git+ssh was broken... Not sure if it still is.
baldfat 11y ago
Free Unlimited Private Git Repos hosted by MicroSoft (Looks like BitBucket has a new competitor) this is really surprising.
- fao_ 11y ago
  Bitbucket /and/ https://gitlab.com/ https://gitlab.com/
- beagle3 11y ago
  Microsoft's free unlimited chat and phone calls (skype) gets scanned for ads, and links followed[0]. Probably also stored and forwarded to the NSA. Don't put anything in there that you really care about, without using something like git-crypt. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704574
  - nivla 11y ago
    You do realize that the scanning is meant for checking the links for malware, redirection and metadata for previews. Which popular chat service doesn't do this? Paste a link into Facebook, Google+, Gchat and all are likely to do the same or the least passively scan it against a list of known malwares. You are more likely to leak information by just using your browser. Remember chrome does sent full URLs of your downloads/malware sites when detected back to its HQ. [1] or post a comment on Slashdot and get your entire computer port scanned for free. [2] I thought it was common sense by now that if you have something sensitive to share do NOT use a cloud based chat or repository! [1] Information regarding a potentially harmful site or executable file download (including the full URL of the site or executable file download) may be sent to Google to help determine whether the site or download is harmful. - https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/ https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562074
    - beagle3 11y ago
      > You do realize that the scanning is meant for checking the links for malware, redirection and metadata for previews. Which popular chat service doesn't do this? Paste a link into Facebook, Google+, Gchat and all are likely to do the same or the least passively scan it against a list of known malwares. The first time I noticed Microsoft was doing it, was not long after the skype purchase and moving to a centralized comm model; gchat for sure was not at the time, and decentralized skype wasn't either. Furthermore, following that chat, Bing started scanning a server that was not linked from anywhere on the internet. I find the correlation more than suspicious. Anecdotal, but skype ads on a friend's computer tend to reflect chat subjects - which is NOT just "malware protection". I wouldn't know - I only use it with an iPhone 4 and its old adless client when I do. > I thought it was common sense by now that if you have something sensitive to share do NOT use a cloud based chat or repository! I thought it would be too. But I keep meeting people who have the general idea that "well, all my email is already on gmail/the cloud, and it's working ok - so I guess all cloud services are trustworthy". And it seems for this kind of people, until their own gmail gets hacked, nothing gets the message through - and sometimes even if their own gmail gets hacked. I was a consultant for one (rather successful) company who keeps all their precious data on AWS (a few TB of it), without even a local copy, and I couldn't convince them that yes, even though Amazon probably has better IT and security than they do, it's still a SPOF, and if anyone (e.g. hacker) changed their data-at-rest, they would be none the wiser. Common sense is not all that common.
baldfat 11y ago
Open Standards for APIs > We make it easy to integrate your custom tool or third-party service with Visual Studio Online using open standards like REST APIs and OAuth 2.0.
vermooten 11y ago
We used this when it was called something like tfsonline my god it was shit. 18 months later have they fixed it?
- darklajid 11y ago
  TFS's version control system is - in my personal opinion - broken. TFS hosting git repositories? Works fine. I mean .. The git part works fine. So, it depends. If you just care about a place to put your code, I'd say that's quite decent. If you want issue tracking I'd say 'you can have that'. What was shit/terrible in the past? (My experience is based on a TFS setup on-premise, latest version/patches. VSO is usually ahead and better)
  - apalmer 11y ago
    frame of reference: .Net Developer for the last 12 years, been a lead developer for 3 years, have been the build guy at a couple different places, and set up TFS for a couple different companies... The thing about Visual Studio Online is frankly... Really TFS isnt better than anything comparable for project management related stuff, meaning: scrums, work items, bug tracking, release planning/scheduling, kanban boards, burndown charts... Its just not that good. TFS isnt really strong in source control either, for really super big enterprise stuff perforce vault etc are generally preferred, for large scale collaboration projects decentralized as in git is where its at, and small scale or 'slow to change' either git or svn is a better fit... TFS is a deployment nightmare, and migrating between versions is a terrible time consuming experience... Really TFS at this point's only real strength is good Visual Studio integration... So a TFS client that's not in Visual Studio..... just isnt really competitive with 'average' tools, not even considerable against 'best of breed' tools
    - darklajid 11y ago
      Hey. Now - if you're looking for someone to talk to about TFS and bash it to death, count me in. The thing is, I mostly care about my VCS. And TFS supports git natively now. No need to interact with anything else if you don't want to. No need to use the VS integration. Or the website (although that one did improve a lot in the last couple of iterations). WorkItems are .. well. What do you expect from 'extensible objects based on XML that are used for tasks, tickets, and whatever you can come up with'? So .. yeah. I'd say it's subpar at builds, tasks, issues etc. - but again: You can host your repository there and ignore it, if you want (I do). Especially your line about TFS's source control seems confusing, because I explicitly said that it only supports git or crap (TVCS or whatever that thing is called).
elevensies 11y ago
Sort of off topic, but it's Friday afternoon so maybe someone has an opinion. Do people who got burned by Microsoft think its different this time? I see a warm embrace of a variety of non Microsofty things, so naturally I'm worried about what comes after (Embrace Extend Extinguish).
- apalmer 11y ago
  It is different this time, but it is only different so long as microsoft doesnt have leverage.
- krupan 11y ago
  I think it might be a little different this time. I remember when they "open sourced" code in the past they used some freaky restrictive license of their own that nobody wanted to touch[1]. Now they appear to be using accepted open source licenses like MIT and Apache. I agree with apalmer and worry that as soon as they get some leverage over you, you are still in trouble. I can't predict the future, but I've found past behavior to be one of the best predictors, for better or worse. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source
- wumbernang 11y ago
  I've been burned a number of times. Both from audits (that was expensive, even after we were told we were compliant) to spending all night up because ReaderWriterLockSlim deadlocked across our entire cluster and took our entire platform down. Also I've had the tools melt like butter in my hands. And I've had my fair share of inherited shit balls. Not only that they've been treacherous bastards historically. But the thing for me is the cash is pretty damn good and some days you can get so much done its unreal. I've worked with Unix platforms for the same time (20 years now) and know both inside out and windows is way more flexible, particularly when it comes to the end user. What comes after exbrace, extend is no longer extinguish though. Any sane person these days makes portability choices. We're rebuilding our stuff as microservices now (4MLoC C# projects won't survive without this). Now their stack is getting a look in because we're already experienced with it but if they shaft everyone this time, its trivial to port our services away to other tech. We rewrite most of our stuff perpetually so they'll evolve into zero risk.
alexmuro 11y ago
Stuff like this makes me wonder what % of devs use IDE's vs text editors. Personally I can't see myself going over to an IDE, and I would have thought that most 'non traditional microsoft developers' wouldn't consider it either but maybe I am way off base.
- snarfy 11y ago
  I've used Vim for about 19 years, and Visual Studio for about 15. There really isn't much difference between typing :make and hitting F5. Both have syntax highlighting. Where Visual Studio beats all others is: - Debugger - Intellisense There are lots of other nifty features, but those two are what make me choose to use Visual Studio for some projects over Vim/shell tools.
  - Roboprog 11y ago
    The JetBrains IDE's (e.g. - IntelliJ, WebStorm) are pretty good, and they run on Windows, Mac and Linux. To me, JetBrains seems like the new Borland (in so far as they are focused on the stuff Borland did well - programmer edit / debug / profile tools), only without the language lock-in. (I started using the JB stuff a few months ago, and I am hooked now) Like NetBeans, JetBrains also have a vi[m] plugin, so you get both vim style rapid edit commands AND auto-complete, lookup, debugging, etc. Does Visual Studio have the "Awesome Edition" on all 3 major platforms?
    - snarfy 11y ago
      Nope, but it has edit-and-continue debugging on windows. I recall having trouble with a library crashing under Linux. I looked over the build scripts for it, created a corresponding Visual Studio project for it in Windows, and got it compiling. I then stepped through it with the debugger, edit-and-continue to fix the issue, and then copying the working source code back over to Linux. I probably could have used gdb, but the debugger in Visual Studio is so good it was worth it. Debugging in gdb is more work than it was to port the library over, and that sucks.
- jongalloway2 11y ago
sudioStudio64 11y ago
Its a shame that every Microsoft post goes the same way.
- tkubacki 11y ago
  MS is (again) new cool kid. Rainbows and unicorns.
- WalterGR 11y ago
  Definitely as far back as Slashdot circa 1998. And almost certainly somewhere else before then.
Roboprog 11y ago
OK, so after wading through all the marketing fluffery, it sounds like MS is coming to the table with source control hosting, and calling it Visual Studio (Online)??? (I sort of expected some kind of web based editing, or maybe even remote debugging, based on the name). And, judging from the comments, its greatest strength is when it emulates git, ignoring their previous 2 source control products?
morpheous 11y ago
If Microsoft continues like this - I'll have no choice but to start liking them and doing more dev on their platform ;) Somehow though, I can't seem to silence the inner voice in my head that keeps asking: "Can a Leopard really change it's spots"? It'll take a few more iterations of MS's displays of commitment to "Openness" to get me to believe that they have fully embraced the concept. I won't be holding my breath ...

226 points by dstaheli 11y ago

> Microsoft provided me both a PC laptop and a MacBook for my job and hired me to coordinate the effort to enable and better support non-traditional Microsoft developers (i.e. developers that use something other than C# and .NET technologies) to easily design, build, test and deploy their software and systems solutions, especially to the cloud. This is a major change in terms of what I would hear from a Microsoft Blog Post on Software Development Tools and especially Visual Studio.

NicoJuicy 11y ago
Not only that... But i am a C# developer and now i can use tools like bower and gulp ( already knew them fyi). I seriously love this.. I am afraid though that a lot of current .Net developers won't like this ( colleagues and because vNext is more command line based )

josteink 11y ago

The fact that I'm now complaining about how FreeBSD is poorly supported compared to other Unixes like Linux and OSX really is quite amazing. 5 years ago I wouldn't even be surprised if MS websites intentionally didn't work in browsers not IE. Now this.

x5n1 11y ago
Microsoft realizes that they don't have a monopoly on this stuff and many other tools are just as good and as useful as theirs. So they had to actually innovate. That being said I would still not use Microsoft as getting Windows is a headache compared to getting OS X. I recently wanted to deploy my QT App on Windows and found out my old Vista box will not suffice for MVC2013, I need Windows 7. My Mac from 2009 is still good it can get 10.10, but the Vista box from the same time is SOL when it comes to compiling Chromium. When Windows is as free as OS X and Linux, then I might considering developing on their platform.
- darklajid 11y ago
  Now, from one free software nerd¹ to another: It's not helping to kick this down. Arguably Microsoft opened quite a lot of stuff recently. After ASP.Net and .Net Core I remember WCF, Visual Studio Code and VSO offers like this (plus the git integration). Can we please see the good here instead of asking for everything (and unrealistic stuff, tbh), now? ① Liberate your documents or Fosdem t-shirt is the common setup here..
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Microsoft is following its own strategy none of this stuff is positive for free software. It's just a way to enter and stay relevant in a market where free software whether that's android or linux has already won. Microsoft is not doing it for us, it's doing it for itself to stay relevant. Am I thankful, no not really. I would prefer Microsoft go away and the Unixes prevail. This just ensures the market stays fragmented with Windows leading the user base. Despite the fact that there are competitors out there good enough to replace most of it.
    - slg 11y ago
      Microsoft is a business and openness is a business strategy. I don't see the problem with that. I also don't think it is unique for any of the big technology companies. Do you think OS X is Unix based because Apple loves openness?
    - jfuhrman 11y ago
      Fragmentation is harmful when it's mostly similar ones with minor incompatibilities, like ten thousand Linux distros and Window managers. Not to mention the various stock browser versions on Android phones. Across a market, having two to five differently implemented competitive products results in innovation instead of stagnation with just one.
    - stephengillie 11y ago
      Does it matter, the motive of the employees and executives at Microsoft? If you do something for the wrong reason, is the work tainted? Or is everyone who does your work on your side, regardless of who or why?

robertodelori 11y ago

It's absolutelly amazing to see, how MS is evolving. Few more steps like that and I really might consider switching back to Windows and giving WinPhone a try...

pjmlp 11y ago
The WinPhone software stack is quite good.
v0lta 11y ago
I did some basic WinPhone development (i'm mostly on linux/unix) and was pleasantly surprised by the smoothness of the tools. I recommend to check it out by building some simple stuff.
skrowl 11y ago
What exactly can you do from your (presumably since it's HN) Mac that you can't do from Windows that's preventing you from switching now?
- zeendo 11y ago
  Probably iOS development?
  - miguelrochefort 11y ago
    I've been doing iOS development on a PC for years.
- eropple 11y ago
  Not the OP, but for me: use Unix. Cygwin is not a sufficient alternative to having an actual, working Unix that works as I expect it to when I use it, with a decent terminal emulator on top of it. (PowerShell is both non-substitutable and inferior.) Windows-the-desktop is fine, though I don't like it. Windows-the-workstation is, even with the plus that is Visual Studio, still a considerable distance behind even Linux, to say nothing of OS X.

ohitsdom 11y ago

Love the new Microsoft. For small side projects/prototypes, I have tended to not use version control (I know, the horror). I just stumbled across their free private repo storage this morning, and it's going to be a huge improvement in my at-home workflow.

baldfat 11y ago
Single User Git was the best thing I have done. I have backups and documentation.
- ossreality 11y ago
  What is "Single User Git"?
georgemcbay 11y ago
bitbucket also supports free private repos. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't try or use this option (I've always been a fan of most of Microsoft's dev tools), but I've been using bitbucket as my "side project" source code control system for free (incl. private repos) for years.
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  Nice, didn't know that. I'm a .NET guy though and have only used SVN and TFS at work, so now I can use TFS at home as well. Probably should learn Git with my next project...
  - giancarlostoro 11y ago
    Git comes with Visual Studio since Visual Studio 2013, so it's a lot more seamless.
    - tracker1 11y ago
      Though iirc git+ssh was broken... Not sure if it still is.

baldfat 11y ago

Free Unlimited Private Git Repos hosted by MicroSoft (Looks like BitBucket has a new competitor) this is really surprising.

fao_ 11y ago
Bitbucket /and/ https://gitlab.com/ https://gitlab.com/
beagle3 11y ago
Microsoft's free unlimited chat and phone calls (skype) gets scanned for ads, and links followed[0]. Probably also stored and forwarded to the NSA. Don't put anything in there that you really care about, without using something like git-crypt. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5704574
- nivla 11y ago
  You do realize that the scanning is meant for checking the links for malware, redirection and metadata for previews. Which popular chat service doesn't do this? Paste a link into Facebook, Google+, Gchat and all are likely to do the same or the least passively scan it against a list of known malwares. You are more likely to leak information by just using your browser. Remember chrome does sent full URLs of your downloads/malware sites when detected back to its HQ. [1] or post a comment on Slashdot and get your entire computer port scanned for free. [2] I thought it was common sense by now that if you have something sensitive to share do NOT use a cloud based chat or repository! [1] Information regarding a potentially harmful site or executable file download (including the full URL of the site or executable file download) may be sent to Google to help determine whether the site or download is harmful. - https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/ https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/privacy/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562074 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7562074
  - beagle3 11y ago
    > You do realize that the scanning is meant for checking the links for malware, redirection and metadata for previews. Which popular chat service doesn't do this? Paste a link into Facebook, Google+, Gchat and all are likely to do the same or the least passively scan it against a list of known malwares. The first time I noticed Microsoft was doing it, was not long after the skype purchase and moving to a centralized comm model; gchat for sure was not at the time, and decentralized skype wasn't either. Furthermore, following that chat, Bing started scanning a server that was not linked from anywhere on the internet. I find the correlation more than suspicious. Anecdotal, but skype ads on a friend's computer tend to reflect chat subjects - which is NOT just "malware protection". I wouldn't know - I only use it with an iPhone 4 and its old adless client when I do. > I thought it was common sense by now that if you have something sensitive to share do NOT use a cloud based chat or repository! I thought it would be too. But I keep meeting people who have the general idea that "well, all my email is already on gmail/the cloud, and it's working ok - so I guess all cloud services are trustworthy". And it seems for this kind of people, until their own gmail gets hacked, nothing gets the message through - and sometimes even if their own gmail gets hacked. I was a consultant for one (rather successful) company who keeps all their precious data on AWS (a few TB of it), without even a local copy, and I couldn't convince them that yes, even though Amazon probably has better IT and security than they do, it's still a SPOF, and if anyone (e.g. hacker) changed their data-at-rest, they would be none the wiser. Common sense is not all that common.

baldfat 11y ago

Open Standards for APIs > We make it easy to integrate your custom tool or third-party service with Visual Studio Online using open standards like REST APIs and OAuth 2.0.

vermooten 11y ago

We used this when it was called something like tfsonline my god it was shit. 18 months later have they fixed it?

darklajid 11y ago
TFS's version control system is - in my personal opinion - broken. TFS hosting git repositories? Works fine. I mean .. The git part works fine. So, it depends. If you just care about a place to put your code, I'd say that's quite decent. If you want issue tracking I'd say 'you can have that'. What was shit/terrible in the past? (My experience is based on a TFS setup on-premise, latest version/patches. VSO is usually ahead and better)
- apalmer 11y ago
  frame of reference: .Net Developer for the last 12 years, been a lead developer for 3 years, have been the build guy at a couple different places, and set up TFS for a couple different companies... The thing about Visual Studio Online is frankly... Really TFS isnt better than anything comparable for project management related stuff, meaning: scrums, work items, bug tracking, release planning/scheduling, kanban boards, burndown charts... Its just not that good. TFS isnt really strong in source control either, for really super big enterprise stuff perforce vault etc are generally preferred, for large scale collaboration projects decentralized as in git is where its at, and small scale or 'slow to change' either git or svn is a better fit... TFS is a deployment nightmare, and migrating between versions is a terrible time consuming experience... Really TFS at this point's only real strength is good Visual Studio integration... So a TFS client that's not in Visual Studio..... just isnt really competitive with 'average' tools, not even considerable against 'best of breed' tools
  - darklajid 11y ago
    Hey. Now - if you're looking for someone to talk to about TFS and bash it to death, count me in. The thing is, I mostly care about my VCS. And TFS supports git natively now. No need to interact with anything else if you don't want to. No need to use the VS integration. Or the website (although that one did improve a lot in the last couple of iterations). WorkItems are .. well. What do you expect from 'extensible objects based on XML that are used for tasks, tickets, and whatever you can come up with'? So .. yeah. I'd say it's subpar at builds, tasks, issues etc. - but again: You can host your repository there and ignore it, if you want (I do). Especially your line about TFS's source control seems confusing, because I explicitly said that it only supports git or crap (TVCS or whatever that thing is called).

elevensies 11y ago

Sort of off topic, but it's Friday afternoon so maybe someone has an opinion. Do people who got burned by Microsoft think its different this time? I see a warm embrace of a variety of non Microsofty things, so naturally I'm worried about what comes after (Embrace Extend Extinguish).

apalmer 11y ago
It is different this time, but it is only different so long as microsoft doesnt have leverage.
krupan 11y ago
I think it might be a little different this time. I remember when they "open sourced" code in the past they used some freaky restrictive license of their own that nobody wanted to touch[1]. Now they appear to be using accepted open source licenses like MIT and Apache. I agree with apalmer and worry that as soon as they get some leverage over you, you are still in trouble. I can't predict the future, but I've found past behavior to be one of the best predictors, for better or worse. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_source
wumbernang 11y ago
I've been burned a number of times. Both from audits (that was expensive, even after we were told we were compliant) to spending all night up because ReaderWriterLockSlim deadlocked across our entire cluster and took our entire platform down. Also I've had the tools melt like butter in my hands. And I've had my fair share of inherited shit balls. Not only that they've been treacherous bastards historically. But the thing for me is the cash is pretty damn good and some days you can get so much done its unreal. I've worked with Unix platforms for the same time (20 years now) and know both inside out and windows is way more flexible, particularly when it comes to the end user. What comes after exbrace, extend is no longer extinguish though. Any sane person these days makes portability choices. We're rebuilding our stuff as microservices now (4MLoC C# projects won't survive without this). Now their stack is getting a look in because we're already experienced with it but if they shaft everyone this time, its trivial to port our services away to other tech. We rewrite most of our stuff perpetually so they'll evolve into zero risk.

alexmuro 11y ago

Stuff like this makes me wonder what % of devs use IDE's vs text editors. Personally I can't see myself going over to an IDE, and I would have thought that most 'non traditional microsoft developers' wouldn't consider it either but maybe I am way off base.

snarfy 11y ago
I've used Vim for about 19 years, and Visual Studio for about 15. There really isn't much difference between typing :make and hitting F5. Both have syntax highlighting. Where Visual Studio beats all others is: - Debugger - Intellisense There are lots of other nifty features, but those two are what make me choose to use Visual Studio for some projects over Vim/shell tools.
- Roboprog 11y ago
  The JetBrains IDE's (e.g. - IntelliJ, WebStorm) are pretty good, and they run on Windows, Mac and Linux. To me, JetBrains seems like the new Borland (in so far as they are focused on the stuff Borland did well - programmer edit / debug / profile tools), only without the language lock-in. (I started using the JB stuff a few months ago, and I am hooked now) Like NetBeans, JetBrains also have a vi[m] plugin, so you get both vim style rapid edit commands AND auto-complete, lookup, debugging, etc. Does Visual Studio have the "Awesome Edition" on all 3 major platforms?
  - snarfy 11y ago
    Nope, but it has edit-and-continue debugging on windows. I recall having trouble with a library crashing under Linux. I looked over the build scripts for it, created a corresponding Visual Studio project for it in Windows, and got it compiling. I then stepped through it with the debugger, edit-and-continue to fix the issue, and then copying the working source code back over to Linux. I probably could have used gdb, but the debugger in Visual Studio is so good it was worth it. Debugging in gdb is more work than it was to port the library over, and that sucks.
jongalloway2 11y ago

sudioStudio64 11y ago

Its a shame that every Microsoft post goes the same way.

tkubacki 11y ago
MS is (again) new cool kid. Rainbows and unicorns.
WalterGR 11y ago
Definitely as far back as Slashdot circa 1998. And almost certainly somewhere else before then.

Roboprog 11y ago

OK, so after wading through all the marketing fluffery, it sounds like MS is coming to the table with source control hosting, and calling it Visual Studio (Online)??? (I sort of expected some kind of web based editing, or maybe even remote debugging, based on the name). And, judging from the comments, its greatest strength is when it emulates git, ignoring their previous 2 source control products?

morpheous 11y ago

If Microsoft continues like this - I'll have no choice but to start liking them and doing more dev on their platform ;) Somehow though, I can't seem to silence the inner voice in my head that keeps asking: "Can a Leopard really change it's spots"? It'll take a few more iterations of MS's displays of commitment to "Openness" to get me to believe that they have fully embraced the concept. I won't be holding my breath ...