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French here, the tuitions are close to 0 in Finland and France too (granted that you learn French). Our parents pay up to 50% (I don't have the exact percentage

French here, the tuitions are close to 0 in Finland and France too (granted that you learn French). Our parents pay up to 50% (I don't have the exact percentage) of various taxes based on their salaries and daily life goods, and we as children will do the same. It makes sense that our government rewards us in some way: health care for free, school for free, retirement... In Europe, the government avoids you to shoot yourself by managing part of your money for the well being of the society. In return, we may look less rich by looking at our bank balance. If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US. Beware not to overuse this trick. In the past many other European countries were accessible for virtually free. Until an army of Chineses came, studied for free for 5 years and went back to their hometown without any contribution to the society (taxes, intellectual contributions...). That's why Sweden granted recently the free access to only Europe citizens that anyway pay common taxes in their own country.

wobbleblob 11y ago
> If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US. That really depends on your lifestyle. I spend a lot of time in both North Western Europe and the states. I find that the cost of housing, car ownership and driving, power, clothing, basic luxuries are far lower in the US. The higher cost is in things like education, health insurance etc. Over a lifetime it might balance out to the same, but as long as you're healthy and working, a $7k income in most of the US will buy you a life style a European with a $3.5k income could barely imagine.
GuiA 11y ago
And then you have all the French engineers currently moving to Silicon Valley because a $1XXk salary working for a world known tech company is more interesting than 30k € working for an SSII where you'll have a chain of 10 MBAs above you, or applying to companies that won't even look at your resume unless your degree is certified by the CTI, even if you're probably a better engineer than 90% of their employees. Well, that's what I did anyway. Part of me wishes I could have the career fulfillment I currently have back in France, to give back to the system that made me (l'École de la République, what a beautiful dream!), but sadly that's not possible. Oh well, that's what the UK expats are for, right?
- jguegant 11y ago
  I am not saying whether the European system is better or far worse, just explaining why our systems permit free studies easily. France is clearly lacking of interesting jobs (SII) in IT, expect research maybe. Europe is also far from having a perfect society, but nothing is black or white, just gray. I was working only few weeks ago in Hong-Kong for the biggest French bank in HFT and had a decent salary as a graduated. Hong-Kong follows the US style. I was asked to move to NY for 1XXk but finally opted for a life in Sweden for many other reasons. Anyway, I did my research about NY. With the 1XXk in NY, you must pay a 3000$ * 12 rent (36k) for a 40m², put 1/3 for a future retirement and in case of a terrible health problem (30k$). When you get children, you must pay everything by your own, like fees for 2 children = 15000$ * 2 (30k$). Plus you work 30% hours more, hence make 30% more per hour. Statistically, Americans are richer, so it must be interesting to move there especially when single. It highly depends on your life style and your expected work-life balance.
  - GuiA 11y ago
    Yup. SF is the same as NYC. I ran the calculations a while back, and for my lifestyle I've found out that it's hugely advantageous to work in the bay area until I have kids, and then move back to Europe when I do (unless I'm crazy successful and have a high net worth).
jalayir 11y ago
If you want the Chinese to stay, you also need to have a suitable work/entrepreneurship visa policy.
- jguegant 11y ago
  That's true. And I guess half of them wished they could stay. When people abuse the system, it always destroys the dream of some others. No offences to Chinese people either, their high population just makes them more "visible" when it comes to that kind of problem. As far as I remember in France if you do a 2 years master's degrees, you have a VISA for 1 year to search for a job. One can even search for part-time jobs during his studies. If you succeed, after 2 years more, you can ask for the French citizenship. But, sadly, it collides with the Chinese policy that rejects double nationalities.
draz 11y ago
"If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US." Completely agree. I live and work in Manhattan. I love the city (!) But between Federal taxes, state taxes, and city taxes, the reality is that I pay over 40% taxes. Yet, I receive none of the benefits European countries offer their citizens: state sponsored healthcare, subsidized (and good) education, etc. It's a real shame because I think it reflects very poorly on us, as a "first world" society. For those not from the area, a few figures to give you a sense of things: - the truth is that public schools have a bad reputation. There are a few exceptional public schools (Stuyvesant, Hunter, Bronx Science), but they're highly selective and certainly can't fit every kid in the city. I know many who send their kids to private schools (>$30K or $40K per year in tuition fees) - health insurance is tied to one's employer, and while some is subsidized by employer), it is paid out of employee's paycheck to a private insurance company. So, yeah, taxes may be high in France, Germany, and many other countries, but there's some return. Again, I love NYC and all it has to offer. Objectively, one has to be honest about the pros and cons living here. Disclaimer: I am married to a European. Perhaps I've been drinking the kool-aid :-)
- spdionis 11y ago
  In countries like Sweden I think the tax cut is around 60%. Also, Europeans don't have near as much military power, there's where your money goes :).
  - draz 11y ago
    Countries like Sweden (or maybe it's the only one) also adjusts the fine for speeding according to one's income. If you make a lot, $250 fine isn't going to deter you from speeding. But $200K might (there's probably an upper limit?) Looks like they're using their brains there... Ok, I'm convinced -- anyone hiring in Europe? ;-)
HeavenFox 11y ago
It's probably wrong to accuse the Chinese. Most I know actually want to stay, but it's very hard for them to. For that reason, many Chinese choose to go to US/Canada despite being much more expensive (ironic right) The reasons I've seen are that European companies tend to hire local people; student visa don't come with work authorization post-graduation (the 1-year OPT in the U.S. can immensely help when seeking job - for the company, they can essentially bring you in without any extra cost, and when the year is up, either you've proven your value so they can justify a costly work visa, or they can just let you go); cultural barrier is higher in a homogeneous country; etc.
- jguegant 11y ago
  To quote myself: "That's true. And I guess half of them wished they could stay. When people abuse the system, it always destroys the dream of some others. No offences to Chinese people either, their high population just makes them more "visible" when it comes to that kind of problem. As far as I remember in France if you do a 2 years master's degrees, you have a VISA for 1 year to search for a job. One can even search for part-time jobs during his studies. If you succeed, after 2 years more, you can ask for the French citizenship. But, sadly, it collides with the Chinese policy that rejects double nationalities."
IndianAstronaut 11y ago
Chinese getting a western eduction is a good thing. They learn some western culture, human rights, freedom, etc.

wobbleblob 11y ago

> If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US. That really depends on your lifestyle. I spend a lot of time in both North Western Europe and the states. I find that the cost of housing, car ownership and driving, power, clothing, basic luxuries are far lower in the US. The higher cost is in things like education, health insurance etc. Over a lifetime it might balance out to the same, but as long as you're healthy and working, a $7k income in most of the US will buy you a life style a European with a $3.5k income could barely imagine.

GuiA 11y ago

And then you have all the French engineers currently moving to Silicon Valley because a $1XXk salary working for a world known tech company is more interesting than 30k € working for an SSII where you'll have a chain of 10 MBAs above you, or applying to companies that won't even look at your resume unless your degree is certified by the CTI, even if you're probably a better engineer than 90% of their employees. Well, that's what I did anyway. Part of me wishes I could have the career fulfillment I currently have back in France, to give back to the system that made me (l'École de la République, what a beautiful dream!), but sadly that's not possible. Oh well, that's what the UK expats are for, right?

jguegant 11y ago
I am not saying whether the European system is better or far worse, just explaining why our systems permit free studies easily. France is clearly lacking of interesting jobs (SII) in IT, expect research maybe. Europe is also far from having a perfect society, but nothing is black or white, just gray. I was working only few weeks ago in Hong-Kong for the biggest French bank in HFT and had a decent salary as a graduated. Hong-Kong follows the US style. I was asked to move to NY for 1XXk but finally opted for a life in Sweden for many other reasons. Anyway, I did my research about NY. With the 1XXk in NY, you must pay a 3000$ * 12 rent (36k) for a 40m², put 1/3 for a future retirement and in case of a terrible health problem (30k$). When you get children, you must pay everything by your own, like fees for 2 children = 15000$ * 2 (30k$). Plus you work 30% hours more, hence make 30% more per hour. Statistically, Americans are richer, so it must be interesting to move there especially when single. It highly depends on your life style and your expected work-life balance.
- GuiA 11y ago
  Yup. SF is the same as NYC. I ran the calculations a while back, and for my lifestyle I've found out that it's hugely advantageous to work in the bay area until I have kids, and then move back to Europe when I do (unless I'm crazy successful and have a high net worth).

jalayir 11y ago

If you want the Chinese to stay, you also need to have a suitable work/entrepreneurship visa policy.

jguegant 11y ago
That's true. And I guess half of them wished they could stay. When people abuse the system, it always destroys the dream of some others. No offences to Chinese people either, their high population just makes them more "visible" when it comes to that kind of problem. As far as I remember in France if you do a 2 years master's degrees, you have a VISA for 1 year to search for a job. One can even search for part-time jobs during his studies. If you succeed, after 2 years more, you can ask for the French citizenship. But, sadly, it collides with the Chinese policy that rejects double nationalities.

draz 11y ago

"If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US." Completely agree. I live and work in Manhattan. I love the city (!) But between Federal taxes, state taxes, and city taxes, the reality is that I pay over 40% taxes. Yet, I receive none of the benefits European countries offer their citizens: state sponsored healthcare, subsidized (and good) education, etc. It's a real shame because I think it reflects very poorly on us, as a "first world" society. For those not from the area, a few figures to give you a sense of things: - the truth is that public schools have a bad reputation. There are a few exceptional public schools (Stuyvesant, Hunter, Bronx Science), but they're highly selective and certainly can't fit every kid in the city. I know many who send their kids to private schools (>$30K or $40K per year in tuition fees) - health insurance is tied to one's employer, and while some is subsidized by employer), it is paid out of employee's paycheck to a private insurance company. So, yeah, taxes may be high in France, Germany, and many other countries, but there's some return. Again, I love NYC and all it has to offer. Objectively, one has to be honest about the pros and cons living here. Disclaimer: I am married to a European. Perhaps I've been drinking the kool-aid :-)

spdionis 11y ago
In countries like Sweden I think the tax cut is around 60%. Also, Europeans don't have near as much military power, there's where your money goes :).
- draz 11y ago
  Countries like Sweden (or maybe it's the only one) also adjusts the fine for speeding according to one's income. If you make a lot, $250 fine isn't going to deter you from speeding. But $200K might (there's probably an upper limit?) Looks like they're using their brains there... Ok, I'm convinced -- anyone hiring in Europe? ;-)

HeavenFox 11y ago

It's probably wrong to accuse the Chinese. Most I know actually want to stay, but it's very hard for them to. For that reason, many Chinese choose to go to US/Canada despite being much more expensive (ironic right) The reasons I've seen are that European companies tend to hire local people; student visa don't come with work authorization post-graduation (the 1-year OPT in the U.S. can immensely help when seeking job - for the company, they can essentially bring you in without any extra cost, and when the year is up, either you've proven your value so they can justify a costly work visa, or they can just let you go); cultural barrier is higher in a homogeneous country; etc.

jguegant 11y ago
To quote myself: "That's true. And I guess half of them wished they could stay. When people abuse the system, it always destroys the dream of some others. No offences to Chinese people either, their high population just makes them more "visible" when it comes to that kind of problem. As far as I remember in France if you do a 2 years master's degrees, you have a VISA for 1 year to search for a job. One can even search for part-time jobs during his studies. If you succeed, after 2 years more, you can ask for the French citizenship. But, sadly, it collides with the Chinese policy that rejects double nationalities."

IndianAstronaut 11y ago

Chinese getting a western eduction is a good thing. They learn some western culture, human rights, freedom, etc.