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> 2) Those 3 billion mobile phones either are Android, in which case they don't exactly run Java, or are insignificant featurephones with mobile Java that again

> 2) Those 3 billion mobile phones either are Android, in which case they don't exactly run Java, or are insignificant featurephones with mobile Java that again nobody cares about. No. Java is more pervasive than you think. It's widely used in SIM cards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card You can't get away from it.

coldtea 11y ago
Still, SIM cards are not a platform anyone cares about either. It's not like it matters what runs in SIM cards with regards to Java's viability. (Not to mention they'll probably get the boot soon, as they're an obsolete technology)
- Cyph0n 11y ago
  Not in Africa and other developing countries.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    Actually tons of people in Africa have Android phones by now...
    - Macha 11y ago
      Android phones use SIM cards in most of the world. CDMA/locking the device to an account is basically a US only thing.
      - x0054 11y ago
        But who cares about sim cards? If SIM cards were to run on Fortran (for some strange reason), would you argue that Fortran is the wave of the future.
        coldtea 11y ago
        Exactly that.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        I didn't say Android phones don't use SIM cards. I'm a European, I have an Android and an iPhone with SIM cards both. I replied to the statement that "in Africa they don't use Android phones", not that in Africa they don't use SIM cards.
        Cyph0n 11y ago
        Of course they have Android phones. My point is that SIM-based applications for payments especially are still quite widespread in Africa.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  Since when are SIM cards going obsolete?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    It's been an ongoing research to get a new standard going: >"The GSM Association, an organization of wireless telephone operators including AT&T Inc., plans to replace the removable SIM card connecting handsets to networks with a system integrated in the devices." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-11-18/gsma-explores-software-based-replacement-for-mobile-sim-cards http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-11-18/gsma-explo... Apple then made a first move adding a "programmable SIM card" -- which is a first step towards software-only SIM: >"Some of Apple’s latest iPads have a new type of SIM card that lets users switch easily between operators without replacing the card. This could seriously weaken the operators’ grip on their market, especially if Apple were to follow up by putting the new SIMs in iPhones or replacing them with software" http://www.economist.com/news/business/21633870-moves-reinvent-or-even-abolish-sim-card-could-have-big-consequences-endangered-sim http://www.economist.com/news/business/21633870-moves-reinve... >"As others have pointed out, as of right now the Apple SIM isn’t a huge threat to the existing smartphone sales model – contract subsidies are too attractive to customers. But ultimately, Apple is almost certainly hoping to replace the physical Apple SIM with a software solution built directly into devices; in fact, it was working on such a plan back in 2010, before that was axed by opposition from a coalition of European carriers in particular." http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/16/apple-sim-details-and-potential/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/16/apple-sim-details-and-poten...
- tptacek 11y ago
  This is an argument that applies equally well to Linux; after all, my auto mechanic could give a shit what OS runs on his phone or set-top box.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    If Linux was only used inside phones or set-top boxes as embedded software, yes, it would be as insignificant as QNX. There would be some embedded software programmers employed, to write the set-top box or the phone OS, and that's it. The same way that before phones had "app platforms" nobody cared what OS an Ericsson, or a Nokia or a Motorola phone run, and the number of people who worked on them was insignificant (basically employees of said companies). What makes Linux important for millions of people is that it's used in servers, corporate and home desktops, phones, consoles, etc, that have active application platforms, it gives jobs to sys-admins, web apps, pages and services are written in it, etc. It's not just that an "auto mechanic" doesn't care what OS runs on his set-top box, it's that unless that OS also provides a platform that lots of people work on nobody else does either (except of the "coders of propriterary embedded-ware" that wrote it and those competing for jobs with them in a quite small market). A commenter lower down says it more succintly: ">who cares about sim cards? If SIM cards were to run on Fortran (for some strange reason), would you argue that Fortran is the wave of the future?.
- frik 11y ago
  It's called Java Card and is used in smart cards (pocket-sized card with embedded integrated circuits) in Europe, Africa, etc.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card "Java Card bytecode run by the Java Card Virtual Machine is a functional subset of Java 2 bytecode run by a standard Java Virtual Machine but with a different encoding to optimize for size" It's a proprietary binary blob like the GSM-modem in your smartphone or the HTML5-DRM-module in your web browser. It probably falls under the category security by obscurity.

coldtea 11y ago

Still, SIM cards are not a platform anyone cares about either. It's not like it matters what runs in SIM cards with regards to Java's viability. (Not to mention they'll probably get the boot soon, as they're an obsolete technology)

Cyph0n 11y ago
Not in Africa and other developing countries.
- coldtea 11y ago
  Actually tons of people in Africa have Android phones by now...
  - Macha 11y ago
    Android phones use SIM cards in most of the world. CDMA/locking the device to an account is basically a US only thing.
    - x0054 11y ago
      But who cares about sim cards? If SIM cards were to run on Fortran (for some strange reason), would you argue that Fortran is the wave of the future.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        Exactly that.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      I didn't say Android phones don't use SIM cards. I'm a European, I have an Android and an iPhone with SIM cards both. I replied to the statement that "in Africa they don't use Android phones", not that in Africa they don't use SIM cards.
      - Cyph0n 11y ago
        Of course they have Android phones. My point is that SIM-based applications for payments especially are still quite widespread in Africa.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
Since when are SIM cards going obsolete?
- coldtea 11y ago
  It's been an ongoing research to get a new standard going: >"The GSM Association, an organization of wireless telephone operators including AT&T Inc., plans to replace the removable SIM card connecting handsets to networks with a system integrated in the devices." http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-11-18/gsma-explores-software-based-replacement-for-mobile-sim-cards http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2010-11-18/gsma-explo... Apple then made a first move adding a "programmable SIM card" -- which is a first step towards software-only SIM: >"Some of Apple’s latest iPads have a new type of SIM card that lets users switch easily between operators without replacing the card. This could seriously weaken the operators’ grip on their market, especially if Apple were to follow up by putting the new SIMs in iPhones or replacing them with software" http://www.economist.com/news/business/21633870-moves-reinvent-or-even-abolish-sim-card-could-have-big-consequences-endangered-sim http://www.economist.com/news/business/21633870-moves-reinve... >"As others have pointed out, as of right now the Apple SIM isn’t a huge threat to the existing smartphone sales model – contract subsidies are too attractive to customers. But ultimately, Apple is almost certainly hoping to replace the physical Apple SIM with a software solution built directly into devices; in fact, it was working on such a plan back in 2010, before that was axed by opposition from a coalition of European carriers in particular." http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/16/apple-sim-details-and-potential/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/16/apple-sim-details-and-poten...
tptacek 11y ago
This is an argument that applies equally well to Linux; after all, my auto mechanic could give a shit what OS runs on his phone or set-top box.
- coldtea 11y ago
  If Linux was only used inside phones or set-top boxes as embedded software, yes, it would be as insignificant as QNX. There would be some embedded software programmers employed, to write the set-top box or the phone OS, and that's it. The same way that before phones had "app platforms" nobody cared what OS an Ericsson, or a Nokia or a Motorola phone run, and the number of people who worked on them was insignificant (basically employees of said companies). What makes Linux important for millions of people is that it's used in servers, corporate and home desktops, phones, consoles, etc, that have active application platforms, it gives jobs to sys-admins, web apps, pages and services are written in it, etc. It's not just that an "auto mechanic" doesn't care what OS runs on his set-top box, it's that unless that OS also provides a platform that lots of people work on nobody else does either (except of the "coders of propriterary embedded-ware" that wrote it and those competing for jobs with them in a quite small market). A commenter lower down says it more succintly: ">who cares about sim cards? If SIM cards were to run on Fortran (for some strange reason), would you argue that Fortran is the wave of the future?.
frik 11y ago
It's called Java Card and is used in smart cards (pocket-sized card with embedded integrated circuits) in Europe, Africa, etc.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Card and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card "Java Card bytecode run by the Java Card Virtual Machine is a functional subset of Java 2 bytecode run by a standard Java Virtual Machine but with a different encoding to optimize for size" It's a proprietary binary blob like the GSM-modem in your smartphone or the HTML5-DRM-module in your web browser. It probably falls under the category security by obscurity.