6 ms·

New Gotthard tunnel garners worldwide admiration

60 points by chkuendig 11y ago

noipv4 11y ago
I see a countdown timer at the Bellinzona station. Edit. I think the first (regular PASSENGER) train's going to run through the tunnel sometime in Dec 2016.
- chkuendig 11y ago
  First passenger train (filled with VIPs) is gonna be 2nd of June 2016, first passenger train on a regular schedule is sometime on Dec 11.
ZeroGravitas 11y ago
Is the water they talk about naturally warm? Is it because it's deep within the earth that it is heated compared with surface water?
- fla 11y ago
  Yes I think so. Geothermal sources are a common occurence inside the alps.
- comrade1 11y ago
  They heat a tropical greenhouse and sturgeon farm with water from another tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropenhaus_Frutigen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropenhaus_Frutigen They weren't able to dump the water directly into the local river because it would disrupt the native trout, and so they cool it with the greenhouse and farm. If I remember right the greenhouse and farm were businesses started by the engineers that were on the tunnel project. The caviar is nice - not as much minerality as normal, but still good texture and taste.
- msandford 11y ago
  Yes, that's correct. Except for the first 100 feet or so, the deeper you go into the Earth the warmer it gets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient So while the tunnel is at surface level at the entry and exit points, for the majority of the distance it's many thousands of feet deep. It's about 15 degrees F per 1000 feet, so if it's 5000 feet below the average height of the mountain range then you might expect the tunnel to be 75 degrees F warmer than the surface. If the average surface temperature is say 50F then adding 75F gets you to 125F which isn't enough to boil water or generate electricity (efficiently) but it's definitely hot enough to warm a lot of things in a meaningful way.
ape4 11y ago
It is admirable.
mapt 11y ago
Hits on a pet idea of mine: We have a major issue with rail transportation in the US. It's most useful in cities in a grade-separated form, but it's simultaneously the hardest to build in cities in a grade-separated form. The number of existing pipelines, power lines, traffic reroutes, building permits, and private property consents required to check out grows to dizzying levels of complexity. One way to bypass this is to dig deep, deep tunnels. Tunnels far enough down that surface settling doesn't occur, tunnels far enough down to bypass skyscraper pilings. To do this well, though, you need to construct as much of each station as possible in the tube itself, and only sink shafts down to that level, not whole horizontal rooms. You can do that with a ~20m diameter TBM. You buy this monster of a machine for an exorbitant amount of money, and in exchange you get to leave the walls that it constructs in place, except for some vertical elevators and a vertical stairwell directly to the platform; No blasting, no extensive bit-by-bit excavation, no surface trenches, no access tunnels, no adjusting to separate mud and soil and rock. Just two tracks in a big tube with a bunch of space in between them, and maybe a second level for another pair with an express line.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
  - mapt 11y ago
    Elon's hyperloop is extraordinarily different. It uses an electric hovercraft in an soft-vacuum sealed tube that is integral to the design in order to achieve high speeds for intercity travel. This is just using stock subway cars on a stock subway track with a stock compact subway station platform. Inna tunnel. In order to get a regular route travelling from inner suburb to city center to inner suburb. The only distinction from a normal subway is that it eliminates at-surface options like shallow trench-and-cover tunnelling, and near-surface concerns about subsidence, soil composition, and underground things, in favor of having the only horizontal cut being the deep tunnel, entering the Earth on one side of the city and exiting it on the other at terminal stations. Tunnel boring machines have only gotten big enough to fit both tracks and a station platform and elevators, recently, so previous deep-tube tunnelling had to do two or three single-train-diameter tunnels, and separate excavation of stations using manual techniques, which is a whole other degree of difficulty compared to digging the equivalent length of tube with the single TBM.
gadders 11y ago
Meanwhile in London: Crossrail tunnel already smells of urine http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/crossrail-tunnel-already-smells-of-piss-2015060498925 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/crossrail-tunnel-...
- jsingleton 11y ago
  If you ever wondered where the smell on the DLR at bank comes from. http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/02/02/how-a-tube-station-gets-its-fresh-air-though-an-old-mens-toilet/ http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/02/02/how-a-tube-statio...
  - gadders 11y ago
    Ha. They've recently created some new shops at Canary Wharf Tube, and there is now a fancy Neal's Yard shop right where the Gents toilets used to be.
jsingleton 11y ago
Looks pretty impressive and to think some people say tunnelling is boring! It is and it isn't. :) In other news, Crossrail finished tunnelling today. Not as long as this but still a big project. http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/prime-minister-and-mayor-of-london-celebrate-completion-of-crossrails-tunnelling-marathon http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/prime-minister-and-...
- msandford 11y ago
  Haha, tunneling IS boring! Pun attempted, pun achieved.
  - jsingleton 11y ago
    That was the (intended) joke. Hard to get across in writing. The boring work is over now!
jonah 11y ago
"...the Gotthard base tunnel 'broke all the rules' and the excavation was finished nearly a year ahead of schedule." I'd like to know more about this.
- thallian 11y ago
  In a report from 2006[1] they prognosed a start of normal operations in 2017 with a delay of up to four years but also the possibility of finishing early by one year. In 2012 they seemed confident to open in 2016, but I can't really find the reasoning for that. As far as I can see there were also cost considerations playing a part in the decision. Edit: apparently a very difficult Dolostone section was less proplematic than anticipated (again, couldn't find an english source for this) [1] (in three languages but no english, sorry): http://www.parlament.ch/r/mm/2007/Paginas/mm_2007-04-27_95197_01.aspx http://www.parlament.ch/r/mm/2007/Paginas/mm_2007-04-27_9519...
georgeglue1 11y ago
What a strange article. Is there a translation or cultural context? The part about the Japanese "los[ing] face" or the reference to Russian civic culture are two of many puzzling bits.
- ngoldbaum 11y ago
  Swiss culture is still very insular. As an example of language and imagery that would be seen as quite racist in the US or the rest of Europe, take a look at this poster from the SVP/UDC party, currently the strongest party in the Swiss federal parliament: http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22226627 http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22226627 The slogan means "no special rights for foreigners", in protest of a practice that allows foreign residents in switzerland to sign petitions to open up a non-binding resolution in local city councils. I don't think I've seen such baldly racist imagery from a US political party in my lifetime - it looks like WW2 propoganda.
  - noipv4 11y ago
    There's a whole group of expats called Grumpy Expats on FB discussing such issues. https://www.facebook.com/groups/784454428295368/?fref=nf https://www.facebook.com/groups/784454428295368/?fref=nf
  - enjoy-your-stay 11y ago
    Well, when over 20% of residents in Switzerland at any time are foreign born, you can kind of understand why some of them might feel that somebody needs to fight for their corner.
    - ngoldbaum 11y ago
      I tried to be careful to only condemn the racist imagery. I don't know enough about Swiss politics to comment on this particular debate.
  - whyenot 11y ago
    That seems a little unfair. The SVP are indeed the "strongest party" in the swiss government, but they still only hold 54 out of 200 seats in the National Council. Parties in many other European democracies have expressed equally repellent views in recent years -- the rise of racist anti-immigrant parties is not a problem unique to the swiss by any means. As an American (who has also spent a lot of time in Switzerland) I agree that it's shocking. But, I think it's also a little understandable. There is a strong desire to preserve swiss culture. Switzerland is a country with a history and culture stretching back into antiquity. In the US, we are a country of immigrants.
smithkl42 11y ago
Meanwhile, Seattle can't figure out how to dig their tunnel more than a couple hundred yards without everything breaking down.
- TylerE 11y ago
  Tunneling is generally a bit simpler well above sea level - the main enemy isn't ROCK, but water, and keeping things dry.
  - wsc981 11y ago
    It's also proven to be a challenge in Amsterdam [0]. In The Netherlands (the North-South Line) due to the 'soft' (marsh-like) ground. --- [0]: http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/691-amsterdam-north-south-metro http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/691-amsterdam-north-south-metro
- soperj 11y ago
  It's a Japanese company doing it no?
Animats 11y ago
It's a great project, but that article is a bit deceptive. The breakthrough video is from 2010. Official opening is a year away. The tunnels are finished, with track, power, and signaling almost ready.[1] But the connections to the railway system at both ends aren't ready yet. As tunnel projects go, it was a long drive, but not an unusually difficult one. Mostly hard rock, some water problems, but not too much water. Many tunneling projects are more about keeping the water out and the roof supported than digging. Surprisingly, it was just a 4 TBM job, two tubes cut entirely from the ends. Although there are several vertical shafts down to emergency stations, those were not used as TBM starting points. Each TBM had to grind forward for almost 14 years. [1] https://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/railway-infrastructure/ https://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/railway-infr...
aselzer 11y ago
If they include the Koralm Tunnel on the list, which is under construction, they could as well add the Brenner Basis Tunnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel) :) When completed, it will be the world's second largest tunnel, only shorter than this one.

60 points by chkuendig 11y ago

I see a countdown timer at the Bellinzona station. Edit. I think the first (regular PASSENGER) train's going to run through the tunnel sometime in Dec 2016.

chkuendig 11y ago
First passenger train (filled with VIPs) is gonna be 2nd of June 2016, first passenger train on a regular schedule is sometime on Dec 11.

ZeroGravitas 11y ago

Is the water they talk about naturally warm? Is it because it's deep within the earth that it is heated compared with surface water?

fla 11y ago
Yes I think so. Geothermal sources are a common occurence inside the alps.
comrade1 11y ago
They heat a tropical greenhouse and sturgeon farm with water from another tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropenhaus_Frutigen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropenhaus_Frutigen They weren't able to dump the water directly into the local river because it would disrupt the native trout, and so they cool it with the greenhouse and farm. If I remember right the greenhouse and farm were businesses started by the engineers that were on the tunnel project. The caviar is nice - not as much minerality as normal, but still good texture and taste.
msandford 11y ago
Yes, that's correct. Except for the first 100 feet or so, the deeper you go into the Earth the warmer it gets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_gradient So while the tunnel is at surface level at the entry and exit points, for the majority of the distance it's many thousands of feet deep. It's about 15 degrees F per 1000 feet, so if it's 5000 feet below the average height of the mountain range then you might expect the tunnel to be 75 degrees F warmer than the surface. If the average surface temperature is say 50F then adding 75F gets you to 125F which isn't enough to boil water or generate electricity (efficiently) but it's definitely hot enough to warm a lot of things in a meaningful way.

ape4 11y ago

It is admirable.

mapt 11y ago

Hits on a pet idea of mine: We have a major issue with rail transportation in the US. It's most useful in cities in a grade-separated form, but it's simultaneously the hardest to build in cities in a grade-separated form. The number of existing pipelines, power lines, traffic reroutes, building permits, and private property consents required to check out grows to dizzying levels of complexity. One way to bypass this is to dig deep, deep tunnels. Tunnels far enough down that surface settling doesn't occur, tunnels far enough down to bypass skyscraper pilings. To do this well, though, you need to construct as much of each station as possible in the tube itself, and only sink shafts down to that level, not whole horizontal rooms. You can do that with a ~20m diameter TBM. You buy this monster of a machine for an exorbitant amount of money, and in exchange you get to leave the walls that it constructs in place, except for some vertical elevators and a vertical stairwell directly to the platform; No blasting, no extensive bit-by-bit excavation, no surface trenches, no access tunnels, no adjusting to separate mud and soil and rock. Just two tracks in a big tube with a bunch of space in between them, and maybe a second level for another pair with an express line.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
- mapt 11y ago
  Elon's hyperloop is extraordinarily different. It uses an electric hovercraft in an soft-vacuum sealed tube that is integral to the design in order to achieve high speeds for intercity travel. This is just using stock subway cars on a stock subway track with a stock compact subway station platform. Inna tunnel. In order to get a regular route travelling from inner suburb to city center to inner suburb. The only distinction from a normal subway is that it eliminates at-surface options like shallow trench-and-cover tunnelling, and near-surface concerns about subsidence, soil composition, and underground things, in favor of having the only horizontal cut being the deep tunnel, entering the Earth on one side of the city and exiting it on the other at terminal stations. Tunnel boring machines have only gotten big enough to fit both tracks and a station platform and elevators, recently, so previous deep-tube tunnelling had to do two or three single-train-diameter tunnels, and separate excavation of stations using manual techniques, which is a whole other degree of difficulty compared to digging the equivalent length of tube with the single TBM.

gadders 11y ago

Meanwhile in London: Crossrail tunnel already smells of urine http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/crossrail-tunnel-already-smells-of-piss-2015060498925 http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/crossrail-tunnel-...

jsingleton 11y ago
If you ever wondered where the smell on the DLR at bank comes from. http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/02/02/how-a-tube-station-gets-its-fresh-air-though-an-old-mens-toilet/ http://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2014/02/02/how-a-tube-statio...
- gadders 11y ago
  Ha. They've recently created some new shops at Canary Wharf Tube, and there is now a fancy Neal's Yard shop right where the Gents toilets used to be.

jsingleton 11y ago

Looks pretty impressive and to think some people say tunnelling is boring! It is and it isn't. :) In other news, Crossrail finished tunnelling today. Not as long as this but still a big project. http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/prime-minister-and-mayor-of-london-celebrate-completion-of-crossrails-tunnelling-marathon http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/prime-minister-and-...

msandford 11y ago
Haha, tunneling IS boring! Pun attempted, pun achieved.
- jsingleton 11y ago
  That was the (intended) joke. Hard to get across in writing. The boring work is over now!

jonah 11y ago

"...the Gotthard base tunnel 'broke all the rules' and the excavation was finished nearly a year ahead of schedule." I'd like to know more about this.

thallian 11y ago
In a report from 2006[1] they prognosed a start of normal operations in 2017 with a delay of up to four years but also the possibility of finishing early by one year. In 2012 they seemed confident to open in 2016, but I can't really find the reasoning for that. As far as I can see there were also cost considerations playing a part in the decision. Edit: apparently a very difficult Dolostone section was less proplematic than anticipated (again, couldn't find an english source for this) [1] (in three languages but no english, sorry): http://www.parlament.ch/r/mm/2007/Paginas/mm_2007-04-27_95197_01.aspx http://www.parlament.ch/r/mm/2007/Paginas/mm_2007-04-27_9519...

georgeglue1 11y ago

What a strange article. Is there a translation or cultural context? The part about the Japanese "los[ing] face" or the reference to Russian civic culture are two of many puzzling bits.

ngoldbaum 11y ago
Swiss culture is still very insular. As an example of language and imagery that would be seen as quite racist in the US or the rest of Europe, take a look at this poster from the SVP/UDC party, currently the strongest party in the Swiss federal parliament: http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22226627 http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22226627 The slogan means "no special rights for foreigners", in protest of a practice that allows foreign residents in switzerland to sign petitions to open up a non-binding resolution in local city councils. I don't think I've seen such baldly racist imagery from a US political party in my lifetime - it looks like WW2 propoganda.
- noipv4 11y ago
  There's a whole group of expats called Grumpy Expats on FB discussing such issues. https://www.facebook.com/groups/784454428295368/?fref=nf https://www.facebook.com/groups/784454428295368/?fref=nf
- enjoy-your-stay 11y ago
  Well, when over 20% of residents in Switzerland at any time are foreign born, you can kind of understand why some of them might feel that somebody needs to fight for their corner.
  - ngoldbaum 11y ago
    I tried to be careful to only condemn the racist imagery. I don't know enough about Swiss politics to comment on this particular debate.
- whyenot 11y ago
  That seems a little unfair. The SVP are indeed the "strongest party" in the swiss government, but they still only hold 54 out of 200 seats in the National Council. Parties in many other European democracies have expressed equally repellent views in recent years -- the rise of racist anti-immigrant parties is not a problem unique to the swiss by any means. As an American (who has also spent a lot of time in Switzerland) I agree that it's shocking. But, I think it's also a little understandable. There is a strong desire to preserve swiss culture. Switzerland is a country with a history and culture stretching back into antiquity. In the US, we are a country of immigrants.

smithkl42 11y ago

Meanwhile, Seattle can't figure out how to dig their tunnel more than a couple hundred yards without everything breaking down.

TylerE 11y ago
Tunneling is generally a bit simpler well above sea level - the main enemy isn't ROCK, but water, and keeping things dry.
- wsc981 11y ago
  It's also proven to be a challenge in Amsterdam [0]. In The Netherlands (the North-South Line) due to the 'soft' (marsh-like) ground. --- [0]: http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/691-amsterdam-north-south-metro http://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/691-amsterdam-north-south-metro
soperj 11y ago
It's a Japanese company doing it no?

Animats 11y ago

It's a great project, but that article is a bit deceptive. The breakthrough video is from 2010. Official opening is a year away. The tunnels are finished, with track, power, and signaling almost ready.[1] But the connections to the railway system at both ends aren't ready yet. As tunnel projects go, it was a long drive, but not an unusually difficult one. Mostly hard rock, some water problems, but not too much water. Many tunneling projects are more about keeping the water out and the roof supported than digging. Surprisingly, it was just a 4 TBM job, two tubes cut entirely from the ends. Although there are several vertical shafts down to emergency stations, those were not used as TBM starting points. Each TBM had to grind forward for almost 14 years. [1] https://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/railway-infrastructure/ https://www.alptransit.ch/en/status-of-the-work/railway-infr...

aselzer 11y ago

If they include the Koralm Tunnel on the list, which is under construction, they could as well add the Brenner Basis Tunnel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenner_Base_Tunnel) :) When completed, it will be the world's second largest tunnel, only shorter than this one.