6 ms·

Sorry to point this out, but the uplifting character of this story only really applies if this action actually helped the trapped man. It might be nice to feel

by sgentle 11y ago

Sorry to point this out, but the uplifting character of this story only really applies if this action actually helped the trapped man. It might be nice to feel like these people helped, but if the takeaway is "untrained people should rush in and do whatever seems like a good idea in life-threatening medical situations", I think it's selling us an attractive and dangerous lie. There are many kinds of injuries (not just puncture or spinal injuries) that get much worse if treated by someone with no medical experience. The article said his leg was crushed but lifting the bus "looked like the most reasonable action to take". One of the possible consequences of a suddenly released crush injury is kidney failure caused by crush syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome Like all of the people involved in this story, I'm not a medical expert, so I don't know for sure whether these people helped or harmed the situation. However, I think it would be responsible journalism to ask a medical doctor whether the crowd did the right thing before hailing them as heroes and encouraging others to do the same.

phireal 11y ago
> However, I think it would be responsible journalism to ask a medical doctor whether the crowd did the right thing before hailing them as heroes and encouraging others to do the same. Perhaps they did and the medical doctor said it's was OK in this situation.
bloat 11y ago
I didn't read it that way. To me the article was not a feel good story about heroic passers-by. It was about the mechanisms of spontaneous coordination of a crowd of people in a shocking situation. Whether they did the right thing or not is not really the point of the article - it's more interested in why they did anything at all.
- m-i-l 11y ago
  That's how I read it too. The article didn't say whether the person under the bus benefited from, or suffered extra as a result of, the actions of the crowd. But rather it was how an exception to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect can arise.
  - morpheous 11y ago
    Ok. let me put it this way. If it was YOU under the bus, would you appreciate it if the bus was lifted off you? Funny how when I put it like that - suddenly the answer becomes "obvious" to you. It's cold blooded "logical" (to an extreme) people like you that are often a menace to society.
learnstats2 11y ago
Trying to help is better than the "I can't help; not my job" attitude you seem to be proposing. "Due to the risk of crush syndrome, current recommendation to lay first-aiders (in the UK) is to not release victims of crush injury who have been trapped for more than 15 minutes." So crush syndrome is not relevant here. There's a reason why it isn't well known - because the naturally obvious thing to do is the right thing to do here (after first stopping the bus and calling an ambulance)
- blowski 11y ago
  Is there any data about how many people suffer from "crush syndrome" versus the "bystander effect"? I'd guess the latter causes more suffering. I saw a man die, so did a first aid course. The tutor was unequivocal that trying to help is pretty much always better than not trying to help.
  - Angostura 11y ago
    Sounds like a short course.
- sgentle 11y ago
  But that's exactly my point. In some situations, trying to help when you don't know what you're doing can make a situation worse. There are many examples where the obvious thing to do is not the right thing to do, from magnesium fires to drinking lots of water during marathons. I don't mean to advocate "I can't help" as an attitude, rather I think it's important to consider whether what you're doing is, in fact, helping. The classic examples of the bystander effect involve unambiguously helpful actions, like calling the police when you hear screaming. This is a little bit different. An ambulance had already been called, the situation was relatively stable, and I've always heard that unless you know what you're doing it's best to wait for the professionals. Regardless, my point isn't that the people there did the wrong thing. I don't have the medical experience to know (nor, I suspect, do you). Even if I did, they were there, I wasn't, they had a short time to make the decision, and perhaps there are other facts not available to us. My issue is that the retelling of the story as "kind-hearted people triumph over the bystander effect" is incomplete without knowing the actual consequences. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps it'll be "mob of impatient amateurs exacerbates trapped man's injuries in rescue attempt". I know it feels good as written, and it is heartwarming that so many people wanted to help, but I think it's irresponsible to encourage behaviour in that kind of situation that might be medically harmful.
Angostura 11y ago
>Like all of the people involved in this story, I'm not a medical expert, so I don't know for sure whether these people helped or harmed the situation. Faced with this situation, what would you have done?
- Someone1234 11y ago
  They've made it pretty clear they would have stood by, watched, and yelled criticisms at those trying to help. Maybe even filmed it on their smartphone.
  - reagency 11y ago
    Filming is better than not filming. It provides useful documentation.
laurencei 11y ago
Intensive Care Paramedic here. Crush injury is a risk, but usually after more prologned entrapped, without blood supply to the affected area. Usually >45mins - but sometimes less. We carry drugs to counter the effect of the sudden release of toxins that damage the heart. What is more risky here is not the release of the vicitim - but the potential for a failed release. What if 100 people tried to lift the bus, but it turns out they wernt strong enough, resulting in the bus just pivoting on the spot. That pivoting might have crushed the injury further - leading to significant more damage. When we extricate patients - we always aim to do it in a controlled environment. Even when they are sick, slow and steady is often best. One of the worse worse worse things bystanders often do is pull objects out of patients. i.e. if you are stabbed, and the knife is still in you - do not pull it out. I think bystanders think they need to do "something" - but sometimes doing nothing (i.e. dont pull the knife out) is best.
- AlphaGeekZulu 11y ago
  "One of the worse worse worse things bystanders often do is pull objects out of patients. i.e. if you are stabbed, and the knife is still in you - do not pull it out." When I had my last first-aid-course, the instructor told us exactly this - do not pull out the knife. And then he added: but if you did and you realize your mistake, do not put it back in! ;-)
userbinator 11y ago
I would be more worried about them overdoing it and flipping the bus over...
- corobo 11y ago
  I was thinking that myself but then realised most of the 12 tonnes mentioned is going to be towards the base (engine, etc). A double decker isn't going to be a top heavy object else it'd tip over any time it hit a corner a bit too fast They'd have had to do some serious tipping to make it fall over https://i.imgy.org/NO2zZn26.jpg https://i.imgy.org/NO2zZn26.jpg
  - userbinator 11y ago
    I know they can stand some extreme tilt angle, but those tests are done with a slow and gradual rotation instead of a quick burst of force; being heavy also means that once it starts moving, it's harder to stop... so it's a good thing that those involved in lifting it were not too strong.
- kitd 11y ago
  The CoG is actually pretty low. Here's an example of a tilt test: http://therighttrack.millbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tilt-table2-300x236.jpg http://therighttrack.millbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010...
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  (See other replies) the low centre of gravity of double deckers is common knowledge here in the UK.
ksk 11y ago
Sorry to point this out, but what you just said is 100% ridiculous. >There are many kinds of injuries (not just puncture or spinal injuries) that get much worse if treated by someone with no medical experience. So? Just leave the guy to die under the bus? >The article said his leg was crushed but lifting the bus "looked like the most reasonable action to take". The article is reporting second hand information from eyewitnesses. Basing your analysis on that is to put it bluntly - stupid. >One of the possible consequences of a suddenly released crush injury is kidney failure caused by crush syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome So what? You keep stating these as-if they are revelations. People already have a good understanding that injuries can have unanticipated complications. >Like all of the people involved in this story, I'm not a medical expert, How do you know that nobody there was a medical expert? They did not interview 100 people. Nor did they do a survey of all the people around the accident. >However, I think it would be responsible journalism to ask a medical doctor whether the crowd did the right thing before hailing them as heroes and encouraging others to do the same. The word hero was not in the article. In any case, they ARE heroes because they risked their own safety to help another human being.
- antihero 11y ago
  > So? Just leave the guy to die under the bus? I'm not sure of the specifics but the one thing that bugged me is that they dragged him out. If they could move the bus off of him (for all I know they just lifted it "up" enough to move him) then dragging is a terrible idea.
serge2k 11y ago
that and not much blood becomes a whole lot if you remove pressure on the wrong place. wait for the ambulance and help then, if they need it.

by sgentle 11y ago

phireal 11y ago

> However, I think it would be responsible journalism to ask a medical doctor whether the crowd did the right thing before hailing them as heroes and encouraging others to do the same. Perhaps they did and the medical doctor said it's was OK in this situation.

bloat 11y ago

I didn't read it that way. To me the article was not a feel good story about heroic passers-by. It was about the mechanisms of spontaneous coordination of a crowd of people in a shocking situation. Whether they did the right thing or not is not really the point of the article - it's more interested in why they did anything at all.

m-i-l 11y ago
That's how I read it too. The article didn't say whether the person under the bus benefited from, or suffered extra as a result of, the actions of the crowd. But rather it was how an exception to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect can arise.
- morpheous 11y ago
  Ok. let me put it this way. If it was YOU under the bus, would you appreciate it if the bus was lifted off you? Funny how when I put it like that - suddenly the answer becomes "obvious" to you. It's cold blooded "logical" (to an extreme) people like you that are often a menace to society.

learnstats2 11y ago

Trying to help is better than the "I can't help; not my job" attitude you seem to be proposing. "Due to the risk of crush syndrome, current recommendation to lay first-aiders (in the UK) is to not release victims of crush injury who have been trapped for more than 15 minutes." So crush syndrome is not relevant here. There's a reason why it isn't well known - because the naturally obvious thing to do is the right thing to do here (after first stopping the bus and calling an ambulance)

blowski 11y ago
Is there any data about how many people suffer from "crush syndrome" versus the "bystander effect"? I'd guess the latter causes more suffering. I saw a man die, so did a first aid course. The tutor was unequivocal that trying to help is pretty much always better than not trying to help.
- Angostura 11y ago
  Sounds like a short course.
sgentle 11y ago
But that's exactly my point. In some situations, trying to help when you don't know what you're doing can make a situation worse. There are many examples where the obvious thing to do is not the right thing to do, from magnesium fires to drinking lots of water during marathons. I don't mean to advocate "I can't help" as an attitude, rather I think it's important to consider whether what you're doing is, in fact, helping. The classic examples of the bystander effect involve unambiguously helpful actions, like calling the police when you hear screaming. This is a little bit different. An ambulance had already been called, the situation was relatively stable, and I've always heard that unless you know what you're doing it's best to wait for the professionals. Regardless, my point isn't that the people there did the wrong thing. I don't have the medical experience to know (nor, I suspect, do you). Even if I did, they were there, I wasn't, they had a short time to make the decision, and perhaps there are other facts not available to us. My issue is that the retelling of the story as "kind-hearted people triumph over the bystander effect" is incomplete without knowing the actual consequences. With the benefit of hindsight, perhaps it'll be "mob of impatient amateurs exacerbates trapped man's injuries in rescue attempt". I know it feels good as written, and it is heartwarming that so many people wanted to help, but I think it's irresponsible to encourage behaviour in that kind of situation that might be medically harmful.

Angostura 11y ago

>Like all of the people involved in this story, I'm not a medical expert, so I don't know for sure whether these people helped or harmed the situation. Faced with this situation, what would you have done?

Someone1234 11y ago
They've made it pretty clear they would have stood by, watched, and yelled criticisms at those trying to help. Maybe even filmed it on their smartphone.
- reagency 11y ago
  Filming is better than not filming. It provides useful documentation.

laurencei 11y ago

Intensive Care Paramedic here. Crush injury is a risk, but usually after more prologned entrapped, without blood supply to the affected area. Usually >45mins - but sometimes less. We carry drugs to counter the effect of the sudden release of toxins that damage the heart. What is more risky here is not the release of the vicitim - but the potential for a failed release. What if 100 people tried to lift the bus, but it turns out they wernt strong enough, resulting in the bus just pivoting on the spot. That pivoting might have crushed the injury further - leading to significant more damage. When we extricate patients - we always aim to do it in a controlled environment. Even when they are sick, slow and steady is often best. One of the worse worse worse things bystanders often do is pull objects out of patients. i.e. if you are stabbed, and the knife is still in you - do not pull it out. I think bystanders think they need to do "something" - but sometimes doing nothing (i.e. dont pull the knife out) is best.

AlphaGeekZulu 11y ago
"One of the worse worse worse things bystanders often do is pull objects out of patients. i.e. if you are stabbed, and the knife is still in you - do not pull it out." When I had my last first-aid-course, the instructor told us exactly this - do not pull out the knife. And then he added: but if you did and you realize your mistake, do not put it back in! ;-)

userbinator 11y ago

I would be more worried about them overdoing it and flipping the bus over...

corobo 11y ago
I was thinking that myself but then realised most of the 12 tonnes mentioned is going to be towards the base (engine, etc). A double decker isn't going to be a top heavy object else it'd tip over any time it hit a corner a bit too fast They'd have had to do some serious tipping to make it fall over https://i.imgy.org/NO2zZn26.jpg https://i.imgy.org/NO2zZn26.jpg
- userbinator 11y ago
  I know they can stand some extreme tilt angle, but those tests are done with a slow and gradual rotation instead of a quick burst of force; being heavy also means that once it starts moving, it's harder to stop... so it's a good thing that those involved in lifting it were not too strong.
kitd 11y ago
The CoG is actually pretty low. Here's an example of a tilt test: http://therighttrack.millbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/tilt-table2-300x236.jpg http://therighttrack.millbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010...
monk_e_boy 11y ago
(See other replies) the low centre of gravity of double deckers is common knowledge here in the UK.

ksk 11y ago

Sorry to point this out, but what you just said is 100% ridiculous. >There are many kinds of injuries (not just puncture or spinal injuries) that get much worse if treated by someone with no medical experience. So? Just leave the guy to die under the bus? >The article said his leg was crushed but lifting the bus "looked like the most reasonable action to take". The article is reporting second hand information from eyewitnesses. Basing your analysis on that is to put it bluntly - stupid. >One of the possible consequences of a suddenly released crush injury is kidney failure caused by crush syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_syndrome So what? You keep stating these as-if they are revelations. People already have a good understanding that injuries can have unanticipated complications. >Like all of the people involved in this story, I'm not a medical expert, How do you know that nobody there was a medical expert? They did not interview 100 people. Nor did they do a survey of all the people around the accident. >However, I think it would be responsible journalism to ask a medical doctor whether the crowd did the right thing before hailing them as heroes and encouraging others to do the same. The word hero was not in the article. In any case, they ARE heroes because they risked their own safety to help another human being.

antihero 11y ago
> So? Just leave the guy to die under the bus? I'm not sure of the specifics but the one thing that bugged me is that they dragged him out. If they could move the bus off of him (for all I know they just lifted it "up" enough to move him) then dragging is a terrible idea.

serge2k 11y ago

that and not much blood becomes a whole lot if you remove pressure on the wrong place. wait for the ambulance and help then, if they need it.