3 ms·

I have no idea what part of the UK you are in where people turn purple and call you a terrorist because you tell the Britain wrote the echr. Many people don't

I have no idea what part of the UK you are in where people turn purple and call you a terrorist because you tell the Britain wrote the echr. Many people don't know that fact, but they don't tend to deny it. Most people I know don't know about trade agreements, and indeed they don't care, but not because they want "someone else" to give them an opinion, but because they feel (probably rightly) that they can have almost no impact on how business and government cosy up together. Recent history suggests they are right. I find it easy to understand as well how people can think (in your insulting terms) "Dey took mah jurb!", because once again, I know many people where that is, at least in the small, clearly what happened to them. Of course if the factory where they worked hadn't fired most the UK workers and replaced them with other workers on lower pay, benefits and safety the factory would have been forced to close and move overseas, but that is a more complex discussion to have. In short, I'm disappointed but not surprised that the top-most answer here is "Look at all the lowly working class people, how stupid they all are. They clearly couldn't understand, or have any valid point of view".

pjc50 11y ago
that is a more complex discussion to have Indeed. Some people have done very badly out of globalisation, who should have been treated better: compensation, transitional arrangements, possibly medium-term protectionism. There are social housing shortages and rent problems. There has also been a determined campaign by the rightwing parties and press to put the blame for this firmly on the immigrants themselves. The left has had a disastrous response to this, which is to call anyone complaining about immigration a racist, rather than point to the misdirection and underlying problems of inequality. (Finally, note that you can't tell someone's immigration status by looking at them, and quite a lot of the UK ethnic minority population aren't "immigrants" but were born here.)
- mercer 11y ago
  > The left has had a disastrous response to this, which is to call anyone complaining about immigration a racist, rather than point to the misdirection and underlying problems of inequality. (What I'm going to say is highly simplified, and possibly wrong. I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong in my views. I'd also like to add that in my ideals on social policy I am rather left-wing. I am also aware that the simple left-right divide misses an important axis (social/economical). That said, most people still speak of 'the left' and 'the right', so I'll do that.) I see this as one of the primary reasons why the right-wing parties have done so well in The Netherlands (including more extreme right-wing parties like that of Geert Wilders and Rita Verdonk), which started when Pim Fortuyn gained in popularity. Fortuyn rose in popularity because he dared to attack the Left's sacred 'multi-culti' approach. Their reaction was to denounce him as a racist, despite the fact that for the most part he actually acknowledged that the underlying problem was economic inequality. Of course, over time, their continued denial of problems and refusal to discuss them left space for actual racist and nationalist parties like that of Geert Wilders. From my point of view, based in part on my dealings with left-wing students, the Left is making two big 'mistakes': 1. their particular brand of 'caring' for the common folk is often really of a rather elitist, condescending and paternal kind, and these 'common folk' notice. 2. they refuse to understand, or perhaps because of 1, acknowledge that their complicated, academic views on things, however correct they may be, need to be translated in a way that everyone understands. At least when it comes to votes and not policy. I think this is possible without devolving into soundbites or pure populism. Concerning 1, it's sad and a bit ironic that the Left, in a scramble for votes, eventually started acknowledging the problems and now do engage with the (perceived) problems with minorities in a somewhat populist way.
madaxe_again 11y ago
I didn't say anything about working class people. I said the populace in general, which actually largely refers to the hum-drum middle classes with comfortable enough lives that they don't care to think too deeply. I didn't say that people want someone else to give them an opinion, simply that people will generally take opinion and accept it as truth if they haven't had any alternative view presented. If anything, the working class is more politically aware than any other class in this country. The people who turn purple and start getting very unhappy indeed are staunch conservatives, usually middle aged, who severely dislike their world-view being challenged. Finally, in terms of "they took my job" - who are these they, precisely, and why are they to blame? They didn't take anyone's job - unscrupulous employers did that, and blaming migration or the ECHR is, frankly, asinine - and as per my post, I don't even blame the people who end up thinking this - rather those who orchestrate groupthink in order to make them think this.

pjc50 11y ago

that is a more complex discussion to have Indeed. Some people have done very badly out of globalisation, who should have been treated better: compensation, transitional arrangements, possibly medium-term protectionism. There are social housing shortages and rent problems. There has also been a determined campaign by the rightwing parties and press to put the blame for this firmly on the immigrants themselves. The left has had a disastrous response to this, which is to call anyone complaining about immigration a racist, rather than point to the misdirection and underlying problems of inequality. (Finally, note that you can't tell someone's immigration status by looking at them, and quite a lot of the UK ethnic minority population aren't "immigrants" but were born here.)

mercer 11y ago
> The left has had a disastrous response to this, which is to call anyone complaining about immigration a racist, rather than point to the misdirection and underlying problems of inequality. (What I'm going to say is highly simplified, and possibly wrong. I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong in my views. I'd also like to add that in my ideals on social policy I am rather left-wing. I am also aware that the simple left-right divide misses an important axis (social/economical). That said, most people still speak of 'the left' and 'the right', so I'll do that.) I see this as one of the primary reasons why the right-wing parties have done so well in The Netherlands (including more extreme right-wing parties like that of Geert Wilders and Rita Verdonk), which started when Pim Fortuyn gained in popularity. Fortuyn rose in popularity because he dared to attack the Left's sacred 'multi-culti' approach. Their reaction was to denounce him as a racist, despite the fact that for the most part he actually acknowledged that the underlying problem was economic inequality. Of course, over time, their continued denial of problems and refusal to discuss them left space for actual racist and nationalist parties like that of Geert Wilders. From my point of view, based in part on my dealings with left-wing students, the Left is making two big 'mistakes': 1. their particular brand of 'caring' for the common folk is often really of a rather elitist, condescending and paternal kind, and these 'common folk' notice. 2. they refuse to understand, or perhaps because of 1, acknowledge that their complicated, academic views on things, however correct they may be, need to be translated in a way that everyone understands. At least when it comes to votes and not policy. I think this is possible without devolving into soundbites or pure populism. Concerning 1, it's sad and a bit ironic that the Left, in a scramble for votes, eventually started acknowledging the problems and now do engage with the (perceived) problems with minorities in a somewhat populist way.

madaxe_again 11y ago

I didn't say anything about working class people. I said the populace in general, which actually largely refers to the hum-drum middle classes with comfortable enough lives that they don't care to think too deeply. I didn't say that people want someone else to give them an opinion, simply that people will generally take opinion and accept it as truth if they haven't had any alternative view presented. If anything, the working class is more politically aware than any other class in this country. The people who turn purple and start getting very unhappy indeed are staunch conservatives, usually middle aged, who severely dislike their world-view being challenged. Finally, in terms of "they took my job" - who are these they, precisely, and why are they to blame? They didn't take anyone's job - unscrupulous employers did that, and blaming migration or the ECHR is, frankly, asinine - and as per my post, I don't even blame the people who end up thinking this - rather those who orchestrate groupthink in order to make them think this.