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As for people not being driven by pledges, again, I am a professional engineer and I took an oath when I graduated. I have so far been true to it and I take it

by alex_c 17y ago

As for people not being driven by pledges, again, I am a professional engineer and I took an oath when I graduated. I have so far been true to it and I take it very seriously every day of my professional life. Yes, but you are most likely someone who strives to behave ethically regardless of oaths and pledges. The people who need the pledge the most are also the least likely to follow it when it's really put to the test. That's why reading about the HBS pledge was one of the few times I laughed out loud - long and hard - at something I read online. Maybe I'm too cynical. The article's tone is a bit hard to swallow, but I think the point about "externalities" is valid. In other pledge-driven professions (medicine, engineering, I'm guessing law) the interests of the professional tend to be aligned with the contents of the pledge - or, at least, not usually in direct conflict. That will never be the case in business as long as taking the moral high ground will put you at a competitive disadvantage.

rbanffy 17y ago
Anyone who is not willing to promise to behave ethically will have a hard time doing so, regardless of effectively promising it or not. I would never, ever, under no circumstances, let someone like this graduate. Ethics are not optional in any profession. And don't be cynical. Instead, try to actively be a force of good. Just a little push here and there. It doesn't matter if it's just a trickle. With enough trickles we can make a very nice river.
- njharman 17y ago
  > Anyone who is not willing to promise to behave ethically will have a hard time doing so That is not true. Many people don't accept the authority or legitimacy of those who would demand a pledge (religious, anarchists). I reject out of principal any pledge (and the subjugation to authority it implies). I do the right thing because it is the right thing. Someone asking me to pledge to do the right thing is an insult and an attack on my character/honor. Pledges are also, psychologically, a cop-out. Like giving money to poor people. They let one feel good about themselves and not dwell on the consequences of all their other actions.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    I feel that, by taking the oath I took, I was reaffirming my commitment to act on a set of professional guidelines. It's also a powerful commitment - you state the rules that will bind your professional (and many times, personal) conduct for life. That's a big thing - a rite of passage (something important we have precious little left). It turned engineering students into professional engineers. It's insane to reject every pledge out of principle. A pledge, specially one like that, sets a good example - a model of conduct. If you are not happy with it (like the author), propose an alternative one, one you would be comfortable taking.The worst that can happen is to make an empty promise, one you know you won't keep. It's deeply demoralizing and we have had lots of that in upper management lately. And, finally, sorry if you feel attacked, but nobody is obliged to trust you to even know what's "the right thing", much less to do it or to agree with the rest of the society on what "good" means. That's what pledges are for.
    - shrughes 17y ago
      To some people, rejecting pledges is sane for the same reason that rejecting the right to sell oneself into lifelong slavery is sane.
  - jfoutz 17y ago
    Sounds like a rough way to live. No drivers license. No insurance. No access to debt. I'd have had a real tough time getting any work without promising to actually do the work. Honestly, I'm pretty impressed you're able to maintain an internet connection without promising to behave in a certain way.
- alex_c 17y ago
  It doesn't matter if it's just a trickle. With enough trickles we can make a very nice river. That really depends. I'm not saying social change never happens from the bottom up, but for me, this pledge is just one step up from, say, an internet petition. Show me one internet petition that has ever made a meaningful difference, and I will change my mind about this topic. I do the best I personally can, but I don't think changes to business ethics can come from within, because too often ethical businesses put themselves at a disadvantage and fall behind. Whenever changes aren't directly aligned with business interests, they have to come from outside forces - whether it's legislation, or pressure from society, or both - and be applied evenly to all businesses. That's how we've got all progress so far, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
  - rbanffy 17y ago
    It's not an internet petition. HBS's MBAs will make it. They will say those words and make a promise. I have no doubt many of them will just go on and rape and pillage whatever they find in front of them, but others will take it seriously, will keep their promise, remembering what they said and why they did it and, in the end, the world will be a better place for that. It's also a statement that some of the ways of the past will no longer be tolerated. It sets a code of conduct. Like I said elsewhere, there are very few rites of passage left in our society. It's pretty obvious there are far too many executives running companies like kindergarten dictators, overgrown babies that want everything the way they like no matter what. Maybe something that helps them realize they changed because of all the work they did in the MBA course helps. It's a big maybe, but it's also clear it's a step in the right direction.
whyenot 17y ago
The people who need the pledge the most are also the least likely to follow it when it's really put to the test. There was an interesting study done by the London School of Hygiene recently that found that people were much more likely to wash their hands if others were present in the bathroom, and if they were shamed into doing it by messages such as "is the person next to you washing with soap?" Of course, there are some people who will never wash their hands when they go to the bathroom. T I think most people really want to do the right thing, but there are lots of gray areas out there, especially when nobody is looking. Reaching people in that situation is what the vow is made for. Maybe a public promise to be ethical will be a gentle nudge to help them behave ethically. Those with really dirty hands are beyond the reach of any vow, and always will be.

by alex_c 17y ago

rbanffy 17y ago

Anyone who is not willing to promise to behave ethically will have a hard time doing so, regardless of effectively promising it or not. I would never, ever, under no circumstances, let someone like this graduate. Ethics are not optional in any profession. And don't be cynical. Instead, try to actively be a force of good. Just a little push here and there. It doesn't matter if it's just a trickle. With enough trickles we can make a very nice river.

njharman 17y ago
> Anyone who is not willing to promise to behave ethically will have a hard time doing so That is not true. Many people don't accept the authority or legitimacy of those who would demand a pledge (religious, anarchists). I reject out of principal any pledge (and the subjugation to authority it implies). I do the right thing because it is the right thing. Someone asking me to pledge to do the right thing is an insult and an attack on my character/honor. Pledges are also, psychologically, a cop-out. Like giving money to poor people. They let one feel good about themselves and not dwell on the consequences of all their other actions.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  I feel that, by taking the oath I took, I was reaffirming my commitment to act on a set of professional guidelines. It's also a powerful commitment - you state the rules that will bind your professional (and many times, personal) conduct for life. That's a big thing - a rite of passage (something important we have precious little left). It turned engineering students into professional engineers. It's insane to reject every pledge out of principle. A pledge, specially one like that, sets a good example - a model of conduct. If you are not happy with it (like the author), propose an alternative one, one you would be comfortable taking.The worst that can happen is to make an empty promise, one you know you won't keep. It's deeply demoralizing and we have had lots of that in upper management lately. And, finally, sorry if you feel attacked, but nobody is obliged to trust you to even know what's "the right thing", much less to do it or to agree with the rest of the society on what "good" means. That's what pledges are for.
  - shrughes 17y ago
    To some people, rejecting pledges is sane for the same reason that rejecting the right to sell oneself into lifelong slavery is sane.
- jfoutz 17y ago
  Sounds like a rough way to live. No drivers license. No insurance. No access to debt. I'd have had a real tough time getting any work without promising to actually do the work. Honestly, I'm pretty impressed you're able to maintain an internet connection without promising to behave in a certain way.
alex_c 17y ago
It doesn't matter if it's just a trickle. With enough trickles we can make a very nice river. That really depends. I'm not saying social change never happens from the bottom up, but for me, this pledge is just one step up from, say, an internet petition. Show me one internet petition that has ever made a meaningful difference, and I will change my mind about this topic. I do the best I personally can, but I don't think changes to business ethics can come from within, because too often ethical businesses put themselves at a disadvantage and fall behind. Whenever changes aren't directly aligned with business interests, they have to come from outside forces - whether it's legislation, or pressure from society, or both - and be applied evenly to all businesses. That's how we've got all progress so far, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
- rbanffy 17y ago
  It's not an internet petition. HBS's MBAs will make it. They will say those words and make a promise. I have no doubt many of them will just go on and rape and pillage whatever they find in front of them, but others will take it seriously, will keep their promise, remembering what they said and why they did it and, in the end, the world will be a better place for that. It's also a statement that some of the ways of the past will no longer be tolerated. It sets a code of conduct. Like I said elsewhere, there are very few rites of passage left in our society. It's pretty obvious there are far too many executives running companies like kindergarten dictators, overgrown babies that want everything the way they like no matter what. Maybe something that helps them realize they changed because of all the work they did in the MBA course helps. It's a big maybe, but it's also clear it's a step in the right direction.

whyenot 17y ago

The people who need the pledge the most are also the least likely to follow it when it's really put to the test. There was an interesting study done by the London School of Hygiene recently that found that people were much more likely to wash their hands if others were present in the bathroom, and if they were shamed into doing it by messages such as "is the person next to you washing with soap?" Of course, there are some people who will never wash their hands when they go to the bathroom. T I think most people really want to do the right thing, but there are lots of gray areas out there, especially when nobody is looking. Reaching people in that situation is what the vow is made for. Maybe a public promise to be ethical will be a gentle nudge to help them behave ethically. Those with really dirty hands are beyond the reach of any vow, and always will be.