6 ms·

Are you supporting discrimination against foreigners?

yellowapple 11y ago
If the parent commenter was actually supporting discrimination against foreigners (hint: said commenter wasn't), you wouldn't have needed to phrase that as a question.
- dennisgorelik 11y ago
  If he does not support discrimination against foreigners, then why does he suggest to use government resource to limit foreigners' ability to do work for US corporations?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - saalweachter 11y ago
    H1Bs are a way to discriminate against all workers, foreign and domestic. The domestic workers are competing in a larger hiring pool, lowering their wages. The foreign workers are operating with heavy restrictions on their employment and stay in the country, lowering their wages. The better thing to do is to lower barriers to immigration, both temporary and permanent, not play one labor pool against another to the benefit of capital.
    - dennisgorelik 11y ago
      You got it wrong. Discrimination is created by the laws that prohibit foreigners to work in the US by default. Then H1b and other immigration "holes" soften that discrimination. TulliusCicero wants to remove "holes" that allow foreigners to do work for the US companies. Such removal of "holes" would in effect make discrimination against foreigners more severe.
  - yopodtoh 11y ago
    Discrimination against foreigners is the law. In the US, and just about every other nation, this is the case. Many believe that a good government should consistently enforce its good laws and change its bad ones. So either the government should enforce the visa laws, to the benefit of some US citizens and at the expense of some foreign workers and their employers, or change the law to allow foreigners different rights with respect to the US labor market.
Frondo 11y ago
When they're using taken advantage of, to facilitate corporations' taking advantage of American workers, yes, that is something I support fully.
glesica 11y ago
Yes. And why not? That's the whole point of countries. Americans are discriminated against by India, so we discriminate against Indians. Same with the English, Canadians, Chinese, Finns, Malaysians, name a country. Is it a lovely, wonderful system? Absolutely not. But I'm sick of being told I have to love the H1-B program or I'm somehow racist. Here's what I would support: if another country wants its citizens to be able to work in the US, they can offer to let Americans work there. Every American who goes to work there means one person from there can come work here, free and clear, but the numbers have to stay in lock-step, the net delta can't be greater than one for a given year.
- dennisgorelik 11y ago
  > why not? Because unfair discrimination makes it worse for everyone involved: workers (cannot get jobs), employers (cannot hire qualified people), consumers (higher prices). > That's the whole point of countries. Of course not. Countries have their own legal system which could be good (competition between various legal systems), but there is no good reason to discriminate on the government level against foreigners. Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries.
  - glesica 11y ago
    > Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries. Some Americans would benefit. Others would suffer because competition would be tougher. And of course no one wants a social safety net because that would reward laziness or some other awful protestant work ethic bullshit. If unlimited immigration came along with a robust social safety net (at least single-payer healthcare and a basic income guarantee) I would be right there with you.

If the parent commenter was actually supporting discrimination against foreigners (hint: said commenter wasn't), you wouldn't have needed to phrase that as a question.

dennisgorelik 11y ago
If he does not support discrimination against foreigners, then why does he suggest to use government resource to limit foreigners' ability to do work for US corporations?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- saalweachter 11y ago
  H1Bs are a way to discriminate against all workers, foreign and domestic. The domestic workers are competing in a larger hiring pool, lowering their wages. The foreign workers are operating with heavy restrictions on their employment and stay in the country, lowering their wages. The better thing to do is to lower barriers to immigration, both temporary and permanent, not play one labor pool against another to the benefit of capital.
  - dennisgorelik 11y ago
    You got it wrong. Discrimination is created by the laws that prohibit foreigners to work in the US by default. Then H1b and other immigration "holes" soften that discrimination. TulliusCicero wants to remove "holes" that allow foreigners to do work for the US companies. Such removal of "holes" would in effect make discrimination against foreigners more severe.
- yopodtoh 11y ago
  Discrimination against foreigners is the law. In the US, and just about every other nation, this is the case. Many believe that a good government should consistently enforce its good laws and change its bad ones. So either the government should enforce the visa laws, to the benefit of some US citizens and at the expense of some foreign workers and their employers, or change the law to allow foreigners different rights with respect to the US labor market.

Frondo 11y ago

When they're using taken advantage of, to facilitate corporations' taking advantage of American workers, yes, that is something I support fully.

glesica 11y ago

Yes. And why not? That's the whole point of countries. Americans are discriminated against by India, so we discriminate against Indians. Same with the English, Canadians, Chinese, Finns, Malaysians, name a country. Is it a lovely, wonderful system? Absolutely not. But I'm sick of being told I have to love the H1-B program or I'm somehow racist. Here's what I would support: if another country wants its citizens to be able to work in the US, they can offer to let Americans work there. Every American who goes to work there means one person from there can come work here, free and clear, but the numbers have to stay in lock-step, the net delta can't be greater than one for a given year.

dennisgorelik 11y ago
> why not? Because unfair discrimination makes it worse for everyone involved: workers (cannot get jobs), employers (cannot hire qualified people), consumers (higher prices). > That's the whole point of countries. Of course not. Countries have their own legal system which could be good (competition between various legal systems), but there is no good reason to discriminate on the government level against foreigners. Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries.
- glesica 11y ago
  > Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries. Some Americans would benefit. Others would suffer because competition would be tougher. And of course no one wants a social safety net because that would reward laziness or some other awful protestant work ethic bullshit. If unlimited immigration came along with a robust social safety net (at least single-payer healthcare and a basic income guarantee) I would be right there with you.