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The 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which generally abolished slavery, specifically allows for slavery or involuntary servitude in the case of conviction

by dsp1234 11y ago

The 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which generally abolished slavery, specifically allows for slavery or involuntary servitude in the case of conviction. It is very explicit in saying so.[0] "Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." [emphasis mine] So yes, involuntary servitude in prison systems is specifically allowed under the US Constitution, and you could even refer to US prisoners as slaves, and that would still be allowed. Please note this is not a judgement on whether it should be this way or not, just that the US constitution specifically allows this occur. [0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...

tptacek 11y ago
The disciplinary reaction to refusing prison work is also not comparable to the Soviet penal system. In the US prisons that have forced labor, refusal to work will cost privileges and good-behavior time. In the Soviet system, refusal to work would cost your life.
- dsp1234 11y ago
  I never stated anything about the Soviet penal system (nor did I imply it). I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    About the best thing you can say for the discussion you just tried to start is that it's evidence for why stories like this aren't a good fit for HN.
    - dsp1234 11y ago
      I stated a little known, and kind of unbelievable, fact about the intersection of the US Prison system, the US Constitution, and slavery as an institution, and did so specifically without any kind of value judgement of what that means. The only discussion that I was hoping for was "Oh wow, I did not know that. That's insane", and maybe some discussion of the differences between technology and law.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I disagree, except for the "that's insane" part, which I think I agree with for different reasons. I think what you've done is (a) play a semantic game with the word "slavery" and (b) took the 13th Amendment wildly out of context. There are 13th Amendment restrictions on the circumstances in which a prisoner can be forced to work. Further, when prisoners refuse to work, they lose privileges; they are not sentenced for additional crimes. There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery. The use of the word "slavery" in this context detracts from understanding, and serves to derail the thread.
        dsp1234 11y ago
        I guess I'll play ball. I quoted the exact text of the 13th amendment. I did not quote the full text, but the other part of the text is exactly this: "Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." I played no word games with "slavery", either in the use of the word, or it's context. I quoted directly from the US Constitution. There is no semantic game to play with the word slavery. The people who wrote the amendment, and those who ratified it, clearly understood what the word meant to them, and codified that it was OK to continue the practice, restricted to those "duly convicted". That they agreed that slavery should be abolished, but not for everyone, is interesting. If for no other reason that it can be used to peer in to the legislative process and see the compromises that were made, and the changes that the US has made since then. Indeed, other than saying it was technically allowed by the US Constitution, I provided no other context. I didn't feel any was need as I was stating a fact, not an opinion. Just as I don't need to provide context to say that the JavaScript language has a keyword named var. I think most US citizens do know that the 13th amendment abolished slavery, but not that it also codified slavery as well for a certain class of people. This is interesting, and unexpected. Additionally, I find your comments such as "There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery." odd in the context of this subthread. I have not made any such comparisons, and you have repeatedly stated something like this in this subthread to me. Congress ratified a constitutional amendment barring slavery except for those convicted of crimes. Suggesting that this is not in some way related to US slavery seems odd. What other kind of slavery could the amendment writers have been speaking of if not US slavery?
ljf 11y ago
I think that the difference between the mindset of the American penal system (from a British point of view) seems to be that in America you are in prison FOR punishment. There seems to be an expectation that in prison you should endure additional hardship in the form of work and potentially rape (the USA is the only country in the world with a higher level of _reported_ male rape than female rape, due to the large number of prisoners and the abuse that occurs in there). In the UK and Europe we see prison as THE punishment. Being deprived of your liberty and freedom is generally considered punishment enough. Some of the most successful prisons (in terms of re-offender rates) are in Denmark, where prisons are pretty damn comfortable and prisoners have many rights and access to support (and even the ability to leave the prison for periods of the day if they are trusted and to mix with prisoners of the opposite sex and civilians who choose to live in boarding available in prisons.
- tptacek 11y ago
  It really seems like the distinction you're trying to draw between the UK and US prison systems is essentially based on an implied allegation that prison rape is condoned in the US. That's an egregiously inflammatory argument to make, one that essentially kneecaps the rest of the discussion. It's also false, and papers over the fact that rape is endemic in the UK penal system as well. It's too bad, because your second graf raises some interesting questions. In any case: this has nothing to do with the story we're commenting on.
  - gadders 11y ago
    Rape is not endemic in the UK prison system, certainly not to the same degree as in the US. Source: My wife's uncle that was a prison warder in Belmarsh, and people I have know who have been to prison.
mempko 11y ago
Thank you sir! :-)

by dsp1234 11y ago

tptacek 11y ago

The disciplinary reaction to refusing prison work is also not comparable to the Soviet penal system. In the US prisons that have forced labor, refusal to work will cost privileges and good-behavior time. In the Soviet system, refusal to work would cost your life.

dsp1234 11y ago
I never stated anything about the Soviet penal system (nor did I imply it). I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
- tptacek 11y ago
  About the best thing you can say for the discussion you just tried to start is that it's evidence for why stories like this aren't a good fit for HN.
  - dsp1234 11y ago
    I stated a little known, and kind of unbelievable, fact about the intersection of the US Prison system, the US Constitution, and slavery as an institution, and did so specifically without any kind of value judgement of what that means. The only discussion that I was hoping for was "Oh wow, I did not know that. That's insane", and maybe some discussion of the differences between technology and law.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I disagree, except for the "that's insane" part, which I think I agree with for different reasons. I think what you've done is (a) play a semantic game with the word "slavery" and (b) took the 13th Amendment wildly out of context. There are 13th Amendment restrictions on the circumstances in which a prisoner can be forced to work. Further, when prisoners refuse to work, they lose privileges; they are not sentenced for additional crimes. There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery. The use of the word "slavery" in this context detracts from understanding, and serves to derail the thread.
      - dsp1234 11y ago
        I guess I'll play ball. I quoted the exact text of the 13th amendment. I did not quote the full text, but the other part of the text is exactly this: "Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation." I played no word games with "slavery", either in the use of the word, or it's context. I quoted directly from the US Constitution. There is no semantic game to play with the word slavery. The people who wrote the amendment, and those who ratified it, clearly understood what the word meant to them, and codified that it was OK to continue the practice, restricted to those "duly convicted". That they agreed that slavery should be abolished, but not for everyone, is interesting. If for no other reason that it can be used to peer in to the legislative process and see the compromises that were made, and the changes that the US has made since then. Indeed, other than saying it was technically allowed by the US Constitution, I provided no other context. I didn't feel any was need as I was stating a fact, not an opinion. Just as I don't need to provide context to say that the JavaScript language has a keyword named var. I think most US citizens do know that the 13th amendment abolished slavery, but not that it also codified slavery as well for a certain class of people. This is interesting, and unexpected. Additionally, I find your comments such as "There is no useful comparison to be made either to the Soviet penal labor system or to US slavery." odd in the context of this subthread. I have not made any such comparisons, and you have repeatedly stated something like this in this subthread to me. Congress ratified a constitutional amendment barring slavery except for those convicted of crimes. Suggesting that this is not in some way related to US slavery seems odd. What other kind of slavery could the amendment writers have been speaking of if not US slavery?

ljf 11y ago

I think that the difference between the mindset of the American penal system (from a British point of view) seems to be that in America you are in prison FOR punishment. There seems to be an expectation that in prison you should endure additional hardship in the form of work and potentially rape (the USA is the only country in the world with a higher level of _reported_ male rape than female rape, due to the large number of prisoners and the abuse that occurs in there). In the UK and Europe we see prison as THE punishment. Being deprived of your liberty and freedom is generally considered punishment enough. Some of the most successful prisons (in terms of re-offender rates) are in Denmark, where prisons are pretty damn comfortable and prisoners have many rights and access to support (and even the ability to leave the prison for periods of the day if they are trusted and to mix with prisoners of the opposite sex and civilians who choose to live in boarding available in prisons.

tptacek 11y ago
It really seems like the distinction you're trying to draw between the UK and US prison systems is essentially based on an implied allegation that prison rape is condoned in the US. That's an egregiously inflammatory argument to make, one that essentially kneecaps the rest of the discussion. It's also false, and papers over the fact that rape is endemic in the UK penal system as well. It's too bad, because your second graf raises some interesting questions. In any case: this has nothing to do with the story we're commenting on.
- gadders 11y ago
  Rape is not endemic in the UK prison system, certainly not to the same degree as in the US. Source: My wife's uncle that was a prison warder in Belmarsh, and people I have know who have been to prison.

mempko 11y ago

Thank you sir! :-)