8 ms·

Is this a good time to talk about the US prison labour system we have now? Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they a

by mempko 11y ago

Is this a good time to talk about the US prison labour system we have now? Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right? EDIT: Judging from the down votes, I guess it is not a good time. Maybe tomorrow?

mhurron 11y ago
Yes, every story should be made to be about the US. It's really the only place that matters. Oh and FYI, slavery for punishment is legal in the US.
- humanrebar 11y ago
  Well, not chattel slavery, which is what Americans usually mean by the term. The prison can't sell prisoners like you could sell a car or something.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    They can, and do, rent them as if they were chattel.
  - turar 11y ago
    Can a private prison sell its prisoners to another private prison? Of course it would be called something like "inmate transfer", but I don't see how it's not possible.
- mempko 11y ago
  Actually this is one of the most appropriate stories to mention the US. US has the most prisoners in the world and the Russian prison slaves wished a world where there would be no slavery. That world is not here yet.
  - notdanariely 11y ago
    Judging by the responses in this thread, your comment was deemed off-topic. I think part of the reaction is that your tone sounded like you were pushing an agenda. Then when people said they thought it was off topic, you doubled down on the insist tone. Both of those things are a turn-off: people don't want to see reddit-like behavior (taking a topic about a historical discovery of slavery conditions in Russia and turning it into a US-centric political hot-button issue). I thought your initial comment was a little off-topic, personally. But the defensive / insistent tone in this reply makes me think that you actually were pushing an agenda, and that the criticisms were valid. (Essentially, to me, you proved their point: you weren't interested in discussing the focus of the article, but wanted to hijack the thread to talk about an issue important to you.)
mikeash 11y ago
No, this is not a good time to talk about the US prison labor system. If you have an interesting link about that topic, submit it and maybe it'll get upvoted. But don't just find a topic that's vaguely similar and hijack it.
- mempko 11y ago
  Good idea! Here you go https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
- badloginagain 11y ago
  I think it's valid to take a discovery of human slavery in the past and compare it to slavery in the present. Be it mines using forced labor, sexual slavery, forced prison work, etc. Hijacking? It's seems a natural on-topic comment to me.
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  It is the closest he can get to saying America does this too, without looking like a total jackass.
- kremlin 11y ago
  The letter in the article says, "Hello, future generation! And may your era have no slavery and no humiliation of man by man." We are the future generation, and there is in fact prison slave labour now. It's directly on topic.
dsp1234 11y ago
The 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which generally abolished slavery, specifically allows for slavery or involuntary servitude in the case of conviction. It is very explicit in saying so.[0] "Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." [emphasis mine] So yes, involuntary servitude in prison systems is specifically allowed under the US Constitution, and you could even refer to US prisoners as slaves, and that would still be allowed. Please note this is not a judgement on whether it should be this way or not, just that the US constitution specifically allows this occur. [0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...
- tptacek 11y ago
  The disciplinary reaction to refusing prison work is also not comparable to the Soviet penal system. In the US prisons that have forced labor, refusal to work will cost privileges and good-behavior time. In the Soviet system, refusal to work would cost your life.
  - dsp1234 11y ago
    I never stated anything about the Soviet penal system (nor did I imply it). I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      About the best thing you can say for the discussion you just tried to start is that it's evidence for why stories like this aren't a good fit for HN.
      - dsp1234 11y ago
ajuc 11y ago
The difference is - in USA it's uncommon for the prisoner to die of cold and starvation.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  True, they are much more likely to die in a fight instigated by, and for the entertainment of, their jailers than by cold or starvation.
  - ajuc 11y ago
    More than from cold or starvation in american prison? Yes. More than from a fight in a gulag? Hell no.
tptacek 11y ago
US prison labor isn't usefully comparable to Soviet slave labor. It was also not helpful of you to post a story from 2010 about a Georgia prison strike in response to this article (and I'm a little surprised it got upvoted so much before being flagged off the front page): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
- MrZongle2 11y ago
  When the warts of Russian history are being discussed, you'd be surprised what aspects of American culture (present or past) are suddenly considered comparable.
  - idlewords 11y ago
    This was a routine dodge in Soviet times. If you brought up human rights violations or the gulag to a Soviet diplomat, you'd get an earful about racial discrimination and poverty in the United States. These aren't the "warts of Russian history". Slave labor and terror were the flesh and bones of Russian history for over half a century. If you can dismiss that history with "there is injustice everywhere" handwaving, then you can accept pretty much anything.
- CWuestefeld 11y ago
  The labor performed by prisoners of the US prison system isn't comparable, you're right. But given that the US imprisons at a vastly higher rate than the rest of the world, and: Over all, there are now more people under “correctional supervision” in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag Archipelago under Stalin at its height. [1] That, I think, is a useful comparison, and one that we should be making and asking questions about. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-america http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-a...
  - tptacek 11y ago
    We can play "Six Degrees Of Kevin Bacon" with this and connect injustices in the US to virtually any story through virtually any starting point. For instance, you could just as convincingly have argued: "But given that economic inequality in the US is so high, and given the demographics of the kinds of people sent to prisons, we should be asking questions about the parallels between Soviet slave labor and US prisons."
rorykoehler 11y ago
Clearly it creates a potential conflict of interest. Prisoners should get paid at least minimum wage. The money could be put into a savings account for them for when they are released. This coupled with financial management lessons could have an positive impact on the high rates of recidivism the system experiences.
Shivetya 11y ago
but it isn't true. Only a very small percentage of the prison population works at any task, one of the primary reasons for such a low percentage; like under ten percent; is security. The majority reason is that prisons switched from rehabilitation to punishment and punishment usually means having nothing to do. First off its easier to implement and second its actually cheaper. What worse is that when getting out the states themselves if not the federal government put many onerous barriers that prevent if not downright discourage employing former prisoners and those on probation. There are many jobs which require certification by government through regulation that explicit exclude felons. The true issue is we have a system which does little to prevent repeat offenders because the government's own regulations put up too many barriers to employment after prison.
user_0001 11y ago
Careful, Russia has slaves. The US has prisoners (most likely to be descendants of actual, real slaves from a few generations back) Russia is coming back at the main bogey man, don't you read the news? ;-)
gyardley 11y ago
In my opinion, you're directionally right about the United States' penal system. Maybe prisoners in the United States can refuse work, and refusing work won't get them shot, but yes - the United States' penal system is most certainly a god-awful mess, and I say this from the depths of my conservative right-wing heart. That being said, there's a certain type of dishonest argument called a tu quoque - pointing at hypocrisy. It's often used to derail criticism of some terrible thing by saying 'oh, hey, you do it too', diverting the discussion to a debate about that. With regards to the Soviet Union, the tu quoque has a special history, because they used it incredibly consistently throughout their history. The phrase 'А у вас негров линчуют' - roughly, 'but in your country, they lynch black people' - was used so often by Soviet politicians it became the punchline to popular jokes about food shortages and human rights violations. That's probably why you were being downvoted - because, completely aside from the rightness or wrongness of your statement, comparison of the happily-gone Soviet Union to the current United States was seen as an attempt to move the conversation away from the awfulness of the Soviet Union's forced labor programs and these slaves' desire to communicate with future generations.
ars 11y ago
I'm personally not a great fan on prison as a punishment. Forcing them to work as a punishment (obviously for much much less time than an equivalent prison sentence) sounds MUCH better to me. Prison takes away time which is the only thing a person can never get back, it should be reserved for people who are a danger to others. Punishment should be actual punishment, corporal, work, that kind of thing. Something that a person will not like, but after they are done, they will hopefully be able to rejoin society with memories of what happens if they offend again.

by mempko 11y ago

mhurron 11y ago

Yes, every story should be made to be about the US. It's really the only place that matters. Oh and FYI, slavery for punishment is legal in the US.

humanrebar 11y ago
Well, not chattel slavery, which is what Americans usually mean by the term. The prison can't sell prisoners like you could sell a car or something.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  They can, and do, rent them as if they were chattel.
- turar 11y ago
  Can a private prison sell its prisoners to another private prison? Of course it would be called something like "inmate transfer", but I don't see how it's not possible.
mempko 11y ago
Actually this is one of the most appropriate stories to mention the US. US has the most prisoners in the world and the Russian prison slaves wished a world where there would be no slavery. That world is not here yet.
- notdanariely 11y ago
  Judging by the responses in this thread, your comment was deemed off-topic. I think part of the reaction is that your tone sounded like you were pushing an agenda. Then when people said they thought it was off topic, you doubled down on the insist tone. Both of those things are a turn-off: people don't want to see reddit-like behavior (taking a topic about a historical discovery of slavery conditions in Russia and turning it into a US-centric political hot-button issue). I thought your initial comment was a little off-topic, personally. But the defensive / insistent tone in this reply makes me think that you actually were pushing an agenda, and that the criticisms were valid. (Essentially, to me, you proved their point: you weren't interested in discussing the focus of the article, but wanted to hijack the thread to talk about an issue important to you.)

mikeash 11y ago

No, this is not a good time to talk about the US prison labor system. If you have an interesting link about that topic, submit it and maybe it'll get upvoted. But don't just find a topic that's vaguely similar and hijack it.

mempko 11y ago
Good idea! Here you go https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515
badloginagain 11y ago
I think it's valid to take a discovery of human slavery in the past and compare it to slavery in the present. Be it mines using forced labor, sexual slavery, forced prison work, etc. Hijacking? It's seems a natural on-topic comment to me.
happyscrappy 11y ago
It is the closest he can get to saying America does this too, without looking like a total jackass.
kremlin 11y ago
The letter in the article says, "Hello, future generation! And may your era have no slavery and no humiliation of man by man." We are the future generation, and there is in fact prison slave labour now. It's directly on topic.

dsp1234 11y ago

The 13th amendment to the US Constitution, which generally abolished slavery, specifically allows for slavery or involuntary servitude in the case of conviction. It is very explicit in saying so.[0] "Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." [emphasis mine] So yes, involuntary servitude in prison systems is specifically allowed under the US Constitution, and you could even refer to US prisoners as slaves, and that would still be allowed. Please note this is not a judgement on whether it should be this way or not, just that the US constitution specifically allows this occur. [0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Uni...

tptacek 11y ago
The disciplinary reaction to refusing prison work is also not comparable to the Soviet penal system. In the US prisons that have forced labor, refusal to work will cost privileges and good-behavior time. In the Soviet system, refusal to work would cost your life.
- dsp1234 11y ago
  I never stated anything about the Soviet penal system (nor did I imply it). I specifically mentioned the US system in my post, and my post was in response to the parent comment of "Where many are forced to work. I guess if you give them pennies on the dollar, they are not slaves right?" which was specifically in regards to the US penal system.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    About the best thing you can say for the discussion you just tried to start is that it's evidence for why stories like this aren't a good fit for HN.
    - dsp1234 11y ago

ajuc 11y ago

The difference is - in USA it's uncommon for the prisoner to die of cold and starvation.

dragonwriter 11y ago
True, they are much more likely to die in a fight instigated by, and for the entertainment of, their jailers than by cold or starvation.
- ajuc 11y ago
  More than from cold or starvation in american prison? Yes. More than from a fight in a gulag? Hell no.

tptacek 11y ago

US prison labor isn't usefully comparable to Soviet slave labor. It was also not helpful of you to post a story from 2010 about a Georgia prison strike in response to this article (and I'm a little surprised it got upvoted so much before being flagged off the front page): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653515

MrZongle2 11y ago
When the warts of Russian history are being discussed, you'd be surprised what aspects of American culture (present or past) are suddenly considered comparable.
- idlewords 11y ago
  This was a routine dodge in Soviet times. If you brought up human rights violations or the gulag to a Soviet diplomat, you'd get an earful about racial discrimination and poverty in the United States. These aren't the "warts of Russian history". Slave labor and terror were the flesh and bones of Russian history for over half a century. If you can dismiss that history with "there is injustice everywhere" handwaving, then you can accept pretty much anything.
CWuestefeld 11y ago
The labor performed by prisoners of the US prison system isn't comparable, you're right. But given that the US imprisons at a vastly higher rate than the rest of the world, and: Over all, there are now more people under “correctional supervision” in America—more than six million—than were in the Gulag Archipelago under Stalin at its height. [1] That, I think, is a useful comparison, and one that we should be making and asking questions about. [1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-america http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/01/30/the-caging-of-a...
- tptacek 11y ago
  We can play "Six Degrees Of Kevin Bacon" with this and connect injustices in the US to virtually any story through virtually any starting point. For instance, you could just as convincingly have argued: "But given that economic inequality in the US is so high, and given the demographics of the kinds of people sent to prisons, we should be asking questions about the parallels between Soviet slave labor and US prisons."

rorykoehler 11y ago

Clearly it creates a potential conflict of interest. Prisoners should get paid at least minimum wage. The money could be put into a savings account for them for when they are released. This coupled with financial management lessons could have an positive impact on the high rates of recidivism the system experiences.

Shivetya 11y ago

but it isn't true. Only a very small percentage of the prison population works at any task, one of the primary reasons for such a low percentage; like under ten percent; is security. The majority reason is that prisons switched from rehabilitation to punishment and punishment usually means having nothing to do. First off its easier to implement and second its actually cheaper. What worse is that when getting out the states themselves if not the federal government put many onerous barriers that prevent if not downright discourage employing former prisoners and those on probation. There are many jobs which require certification by government through regulation that explicit exclude felons. The true issue is we have a system which does little to prevent repeat offenders because the government's own regulations put up too many barriers to employment after prison.

user_0001 11y ago

Careful, Russia has slaves. The US has prisoners (most likely to be descendants of actual, real slaves from a few generations back) Russia is coming back at the main bogey man, don't you read the news? ;-)

gyardley 11y ago

In my opinion, you're directionally right about the United States' penal system. Maybe prisoners in the United States can refuse work, and refusing work won't get them shot, but yes - the United States' penal system is most certainly a god-awful mess, and I say this from the depths of my conservative right-wing heart. That being said, there's a certain type of dishonest argument called a tu quoque - pointing at hypocrisy. It's often used to derail criticism of some terrible thing by saying 'oh, hey, you do it too', diverting the discussion to a debate about that. With regards to the Soviet Union, the tu quoque has a special history, because they used it incredibly consistently throughout their history. The phrase 'А у вас негров линчуют' - roughly, 'but in your country, they lynch black people' - was used so often by Soviet politicians it became the punchline to popular jokes about food shortages and human rights violations. That's probably why you were being downvoted - because, completely aside from the rightness or wrongness of your statement, comparison of the happily-gone Soviet Union to the current United States was seen as an attempt to move the conversation away from the awfulness of the Soviet Union's forced labor programs and these slaves' desire to communicate with future generations.

ars 11y ago

I'm personally not a great fan on prison as a punishment. Forcing them to work as a punishment (obviously for much much less time than an equivalent prison sentence) sounds MUCH better to me. Prison takes away time which is the only thing a person can never get back, it should be reserved for people who are a danger to others. Punishment should be actual punishment, corporal, work, that kind of thing. Something that a person will not like, but after they are done, they will hopefully be able to rejoin society with memories of what happens if they offend again.