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At the moment, this thread seems more like a YouTube comment section than a HN one. Though it's not exactly surprising given that Tim Cook's speech is obviously

At the moment, this thread seems more like a YouTube comment section than a HN one. Though it's not exactly surprising given that Tim Cook's speech is obviously aimed at Google/FB. Let's start with the facts. Apple makes its major money in hardware. Google makes its major money in search. Obviously, iOS has to be able to compete with Android in order for iPhones to sell well. Google offers services like Google Now and Google Photos that can be tailored in a more personal and effective way. How? They collect as much data as they can get away with. Consumers get to have services that should be better suited to them because of this. If Apple wants to compete, it seems that there are two options: 1. Start mass collection and become a better Google. 2. Reject Google's model, and build iOS around privacy and non-invasiveness. That's what this is. I do think Apple will either make a search engine focused on privacy or buy one (e.g., DuckDuckGo). Personally, I am happy that Apple and Google are competing in this way.

collyw 11y ago
The problem is that Duck Duck go doesn't provide as good results, because it lacks the personalized data. Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework. Duck duck go gives me that as well as many links to the film. I think option 1 is more likely for Apple.
- hkailahi 11y ago
  I've been using DuckDuckGo as my main search engine for about a year now. It is good enough for me in most cases. For the times it isn't, I use Google. I think there is a large amount of value in both of options 1 and 2. To me, the idea of Now on Tap and Google Photos is absolutely horrifying. On the other hand, my roommate told me that the Google Photos app was perfect. I suspect that my views will hold, but it is possible that personalization becomes too important to opt out of. I tried to delete my Facebook for similar reasons recently. I missed out on enough party invites and messages from classmates that I ended up going back.
- stephenr 11y ago
  > Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us http://dontbubble.us Unless Jamie Fox someday starts giving speeches about Django framework, this sounds like a pretty weak excuse to use a google-style (i.e. 'personalised') search engine. > I think option 1 is more likely for Apple. Google's business model is basically selling aggregated user data - not in the form of raw data but in the form of targeted ads - for $0 (note, they aren't "free") services. Apple's business model is about selling hardware and software, and providing a fairly complete ecosystem to use those products in/with. Given that Apple's iOS+ecosystem accounts for close to 90% of the profits in the smartphone market, I don't understand this claim by people "Apple will have to adopt google's strategy to remain competitive". If anything people are becoming more sensitive and more aware about the "creepy" factor of having all your personal information in the hands of some corporation that uses it for profit.
  - thomasfoster96 11y ago
    > That isn't a good thing. Well, the search engine I'm using not being able to find what I'm looking for is also a not a good thing. I quite like DuckDuckGo, but 10% of the time DuckDuckGo falters on a search and I have to put in a '!g'. Clearly, you can't be the absolute no. 1 search engine accross almost all queries without using some degree of personalisation. As for a search bubble, Google and DuckDuckGo just take two highly opposing views. In reality, I'd love to be able to turn personalised search on and off at will, but neither DuckDuckGo or Google are going to let me do that any time soon.
  - collyw 11y ago
    I have duck duck go set as my default, but when I want to get something specific and quickly, I often have to use the "g!" option. DDG works well for more "mainstream" searches but for niche stuff the results are not as good.
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    > That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us http://dontbubble.us I don't get the argument being presented there. In either situation, some information is visible, and other information is buried. Presenting the same top results to everyone is just as bad of a bubble.
- panglott 11y ago
  Is it really so much harder to search for "django framework" instead of "django unchained" or "django guitar"? When you type in "django", DDG will suggest some searches to autocomplete as well. Is the performance benefit of personalized searches really worth it, compared to refining your search technique in small ways? Personally I prefer DDG simply because the bang codes are so convenient.
  - collyw 11y ago
    yes, but that was just one example, not the only one.
threatofrain 11y ago
I don't think Tim Cook specifically rejects the collection of data on customers. I think he is pro-collection of data where it helps improve customer experience. His criticism is for companies whose model of business involves selling guided access to customer attention, aka Google and Facebook. His criticism is for what you do with that data. He would probably say that Apple uses its data to help its customers, while Google or Facebook "sells" out their customers. From that communication, I read that Tim Cook is against some business models, not machine learning or data collection.
- sangnoir 11y ago
  > From that communication, I read that Tim Cook is against some business models, not machine learning or data collection. Which sounds exactly like posturing to me. Contrast this with what he says about back doors - if it's there a key under the mat for cops, the bad guys will get it. The same applies to data collection - the motives behind the collection don't matter. If data is collected, sooner or later some of it will fall into the hands of a 3rd party the user didn't expect - possibly bad guys (through legal discovery, a hack, bankruptcy sale, or some NSA ALL-CAPS program). The right thing for privacy is to not collect the data, but Apple is unwilling to take that business decision (imagine how bad Siri would be if voice data wasn't sent to a backend).
72deluxe 11y ago
It makes me chuckle when you mention this being like a YouTube comment section, thanks! I always found it very sad that the comments section on YouTube is typically chock-full of disgusting insults, profanity and general horrible comments. It should be renamed the "abuse" section instead of "comments". It makes you lose any hope in humanity pulling itself out of the cess pool.
toxican 11y ago
Doesn't the bulk of Google's money come from advertising, rather than search?
- hkailahi 11y ago
  You're not wrong, but I wouldn't separate the two. The reason Google can have the #1 advertising platform is because it runs the #1 search engine. Search powers personalized advertisements, and is responsible for most of the money in Google's business.
- bwilliams18 11y ago
  The money comes from advertising that is placed on searches.
  - toxican 11y ago
    And on websites and mobile apps. Search is just a means to advertise at this point, while advertising is the big money maker.

collyw 11y ago

The problem is that Duck Duck go doesn't provide as good results, because it lacks the personalized data. Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework. Duck duck go gives me that as well as many links to the film. I think option 1 is more likely for Apple.

hkailahi 11y ago
I've been using DuckDuckGo as my main search engine for about a year now. It is good enough for me in most cases. For the times it isn't, I use Google. I think there is a large amount of value in both of options 1 and 2. To me, the idea of Now on Tap and Google Photos is absolutely horrifying. On the other hand, my roommate told me that the Google Photos app was perfect. I suspect that my views will hold, but it is possible that personalization becomes too important to opt out of. I tried to delete my Facebook for similar reasons recently. I missed out on enough party invites and messages from classmates that I ended up going back.
stephenr 11y ago
> Google knows that when I search for Django I want the web framework That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us http://dontbubble.us Unless Jamie Fox someday starts giving speeches about Django framework, this sounds like a pretty weak excuse to use a google-style (i.e. 'personalised') search engine. > I think option 1 is more likely for Apple. Google's business model is basically selling aggregated user data - not in the form of raw data but in the form of targeted ads - for $0 (note, they aren't "free") services. Apple's business model is about selling hardware and software, and providing a fairly complete ecosystem to use those products in/with. Given that Apple's iOS+ecosystem accounts for close to 90% of the profits in the smartphone market, I don't understand this claim by people "Apple will have to adopt google's strategy to remain competitive". If anything people are becoming more sensitive and more aware about the "creepy" factor of having all your personal information in the hands of some corporation that uses it for profit.
- thomasfoster96 11y ago
  > That isn't a good thing. Well, the search engine I'm using not being able to find what I'm looking for is also a not a good thing. I quite like DuckDuckGo, but 10% of the time DuckDuckGo falters on a search and I have to put in a '!g'. Clearly, you can't be the absolute no. 1 search engine accross almost all queries without using some degree of personalisation. As for a search bubble, Google and DuckDuckGo just take two highly opposing views. In reality, I'd love to be able to turn personalised search on and off at will, but neither DuckDuckGo or Google are going to let me do that any time soon.
- collyw 11y ago
  I have duck duck go set as my default, but when I want to get something specific and quickly, I often have to use the "g!" option. DDG works well for more "mainstream" searches but for niche stuff the results are not as good.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > That isn't a good thing. http://dontbubble.us http://dontbubble.us I don't get the argument being presented there. In either situation, some information is visible, and other information is buried. Presenting the same top results to everyone is just as bad of a bubble.
panglott 11y ago
Is it really so much harder to search for "django framework" instead of "django unchained" or "django guitar"? When you type in "django", DDG will suggest some searches to autocomplete as well. Is the performance benefit of personalized searches really worth it, compared to refining your search technique in small ways? Personally I prefer DDG simply because the bang codes are so convenient.
- collyw 11y ago
  yes, but that was just one example, not the only one.

threatofrain 11y ago

I don't think Tim Cook specifically rejects the collection of data on customers. I think he is pro-collection of data where it helps improve customer experience. His criticism is for companies whose model of business involves selling guided access to customer attention, aka Google and Facebook. His criticism is for what you do with that data. He would probably say that Apple uses its data to help its customers, while Google or Facebook "sells" out their customers. From that communication, I read that Tim Cook is against some business models, not machine learning or data collection.

sangnoir 11y ago
> From that communication, I read that Tim Cook is against some business models, not machine learning or data collection. Which sounds exactly like posturing to me. Contrast this with what he says about back doors - if it's there a key under the mat for cops, the bad guys will get it. The same applies to data collection - the motives behind the collection don't matter. If data is collected, sooner or later some of it will fall into the hands of a 3rd party the user didn't expect - possibly bad guys (through legal discovery, a hack, bankruptcy sale, or some NSA ALL-CAPS program). The right thing for privacy is to not collect the data, but Apple is unwilling to take that business decision (imagine how bad Siri would be if voice data wasn't sent to a backend).

72deluxe 11y ago

It makes me chuckle when you mention this being like a YouTube comment section, thanks! I always found it very sad that the comments section on YouTube is typically chock-full of disgusting insults, profanity and general horrible comments. It should be renamed the "abuse" section instead of "comments". It makes you lose any hope in humanity pulling itself out of the cess pool.

toxican 11y ago

Doesn't the bulk of Google's money come from advertising, rather than search?

hkailahi 11y ago
You're not wrong, but I wouldn't separate the two. The reason Google can have the #1 advertising platform is because it runs the #1 search engine. Search powers personalized advertisements, and is responsible for most of the money in Google's business.
bwilliams18 11y ago
The money comes from advertising that is placed on searches.
- toxican 11y ago
  And on websites and mobile apps. Search is just a means to advertise at this point, while advertising is the big money maker.