4 ms·

I'm not even a Powershell fan, I'm just not especially fond of Unix-likes, which feel like a local maximum that has turned into an unchangable standard. I think

by halo 11y ago

I'm not even a Powershell fan, I'm just not especially fond of Unix-likes, which feel like a local maximum that has turned into an unchangable standard. I think Unix-like environments feel dated, clunky and there's a tendancy for it to result in permanent bloat, stagnation and a web of interdependencies. I understand that lots of people are familiar with Unix-like tools and their many idiosyncrasies and like to be able to transfer that knowledge across platforms. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit to a platform not conforming to that and trying to improve on it.

pjc50 11y ago
Lots of people keep using the word "bloat" to refer to Linux as opposed to Windows, which I find bizarre given that it's long been a criticism in the other direction.
- tcfunk 11y ago
  Yeah, I would genuinely like to know what all is considered to be bloat within the Unix space. If anyone could point to some information about this I'd be curious.
  - cactusface 11y ago
    X11, KDE, GNOME, GCC, Emacs, Mozilla? Any huge project I guess. The GNU command line tools are not as lean as the BSD ones but so what?
    - Thetawaves 11y ago
      They also generally have more (useful) features than the BSD ones.
      - fallat 11y ago
        Not only that but they include more documentation inside the binary. Someone also pointed out to me one time that some features in some GNU utils are only possible to have if they are implemented in the binary, rather as a separate program.
        cactusface 11y ago
        Well, generally speaking nothing is impossible, but it's often more efficient to put the extra features in the same binary. However this "bloat" is nothing compared to your typical desktop or programming environment.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  Since the word is used mainly as an insult due to people having emotional attachments to technology, the real question in my mind is how did you not find it bizarre on every use. Or I guess another way to say it is that "bloated" is only a measurement of the speaker's disdain for the software under question. It has little relationship with any actual quality measurement, generally. Bizarre on its face, to me.
- nivla 11y ago
  Man after years of hearing how bloated Windows is compared to other OSes, I was expecting my first Windows Phone to be the same. But nope to my surprise it was fast and fluid, even on low end devices! I guess, the same can also be said about Win8/Win10 compared to Vista/Win7. Bloat seems like dirt that accumulates overtime. A little bit of cleanup and optimization can sometimes do magic.
  - ethbro 11y ago
    Bloat and legacy support are two sides of the same coin. Microsoft chose one answer to that, Apple another. I think Windows Phone is a clear example that Microsoft has technical chops when starting clean, it just lacks business willpower to make decisions that favor performance over support.
Fiahil 11y ago
I would really like to see what would be the glorious future of the "dated", and "clunky" Unix-like environment.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
friendzis 11y ago
I disagree. 1. Unix-like environments are (or rather were before systemd) kinda similar and once you drop a shell - good to go. Even with powershell Microsoft have gone down the route of version/feature pinning. If you plan to maintain at least Windows 7/Server 2003 in your scripts - well, powershell 2 is the highest you can aim, bye bye new features, welcome bloat. Red Hat while shipping old versions still backports features. 2. The only thing in Unix-likes being standard are core utils and OpenSSH. Everything else can be anything (SysV/upstart/Systemd, Gnome/KDE/tiny_tiling_wm, bash/zsh) and we are actually deprecating older technologies for new ones (quite often changing the name). Due to ELTS (extremely long term support, often called legacy cruft) core subsystems are mostly the same (on the outside) in Windows. And if it is a server you can bet it is running IIS and MSSQL. 3. Try using `wmic` shell or `net` util. Unbearable clunkiness of such tools and bearable GUI tools mean that we have very little general scripts/tools to transfer
- wumbernang 11y ago
  This isn't the case. WMF is available separately. I just rolled our WMF4 over all our kit and we have PS4 everywhere now including win7 and 2008.

by halo 11y ago

pjc50 11y ago

Lots of people keep using the word "bloat" to refer to Linux as opposed to Windows, which I find bizarre given that it's long been a criticism in the other direction.

tcfunk 11y ago
Yeah, I would genuinely like to know what all is considered to be bloat within the Unix space. If anyone could point to some information about this I'd be curious.
- cactusface 11y ago
  X11, KDE, GNOME, GCC, Emacs, Mozilla? Any huge project I guess. The GNU command line tools are not as lean as the BSD ones but so what?
  - Thetawaves 11y ago
    They also generally have more (useful) features than the BSD ones.
    - fallat 11y ago
      Not only that but they include more documentation inside the binary. Someone also pointed out to me one time that some features in some GNU utils are only possible to have if they are implemented in the binary, rather as a separate program.
      - cactusface 11y ago
        Well, generally speaking nothing is impossible, but it's often more efficient to put the extra features in the same binary. However this "bloat" is nothing compared to your typical desktop or programming environment.
oldmanjay 11y ago
Since the word is used mainly as an insult due to people having emotional attachments to technology, the real question in my mind is how did you not find it bizarre on every use. Or I guess another way to say it is that "bloated" is only a measurement of the speaker's disdain for the software under question. It has little relationship with any actual quality measurement, generally. Bizarre on its face, to me.
nivla 11y ago
Man after years of hearing how bloated Windows is compared to other OSes, I was expecting my first Windows Phone to be the same. But nope to my surprise it was fast and fluid, even on low end devices! I guess, the same can also be said about Win8/Win10 compared to Vista/Win7. Bloat seems like dirt that accumulates overtime. A little bit of cleanup and optimization can sometimes do magic.
- ethbro 11y ago
  Bloat and legacy support are two sides of the same coin. Microsoft chose one answer to that, Apple another. I think Windows Phone is a clear example that Microsoft has technical chops when starting clean, it just lacks business willpower to make decisions that favor performance over support.

Fiahil 11y ago

I would really like to see what would be the glorious future of the "dated", and "clunky" Unix-like environment.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

friendzis 11y ago

I disagree. 1. Unix-like environments are (or rather were before systemd) kinda similar and once you drop a shell - good to go. Even with powershell Microsoft have gone down the route of version/feature pinning. If you plan to maintain at least Windows 7/Server 2003 in your scripts - well, powershell 2 is the highest you can aim, bye bye new features, welcome bloat. Red Hat while shipping old versions still backports features. 2. The only thing in Unix-likes being standard are core utils and OpenSSH. Everything else can be anything (SysV/upstart/Systemd, Gnome/KDE/tiny_tiling_wm, bash/zsh) and we are actually deprecating older technologies for new ones (quite often changing the name). Due to ELTS (extremely long term support, often called legacy cruft) core subsystems are mostly the same (on the outside) in Windows. And if it is a server you can bet it is running IIS and MSSQL. 3. Try using `wmic` shell or `net` util. Unbearable clunkiness of such tools and bearable GUI tools mean that we have very little general scripts/tools to transfer

wumbernang 11y ago
This isn't the case. WMF is available separately. I just rolled our WMF4 over all our kit and we have PS4 everywhere now including win7 and 2008.