7 ms·

From what I understand of the Chris Roberts fiasco, their avionics systems weren't airgapped from the other systems. If that is the case and not just hype, then

From what I understand of the Chris Roberts fiasco, their avionics systems weren't airgapped from the other systems. If that is the case and not just hype, then no fucking wonder shit like this can happen.

rubicon33 11y ago
What does "air gapped" mean?
- cheald 11y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking)
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- AngrySkillzz 11y ago
  Means that they are not physically connected to the other systems, that there should be no possible way to reach the avionics from e.g. the in-flight entertainment system.
- Zikes 11y ago
  Roughly, not connected in any way.
- minot 11y ago
  > An air gap or air wall is a network security measure that consists of ensuring that a secure computer network is physically isolated from unsecured networks, such as the public Internet or an unsecured local area network. It is often taken for computers and networks that must be extraordinarily secure. Frequently the air gap is not completely literal, such as via the use of dedicated cryptographic devices that can tunnel packets over untrusted networks while avoiding packet rate or size variation; even in this case, there is no ability for computers on opposite sides of the air gap to communicate. The case above is an example cited as a life-critical system: > Computers used in aviation, such as FADECs and avionics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking)
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    You can also accomplish a one-way airgap using optics that can only pass data in one direction.
    - saganus 11y ago
      Can you elaborate a bit more please? This sounds almost as if you configured a network adapter to only send and not receive, but you used "optics", so I'm guessing you refer to some sort of fibre-based device that actually impedes light to go in the other direction, and thus the security is via physical means?
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > so I'm guessing you refer to some sort of fibre-based device that actually impedes light to go in the other direction, and thus the security is via physical means? Correct. To simplify, imagine a diode on one side and a photodetector cell on the other. On a microcontroller, this would be an opto-isolator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator). Of course, the higher levels of the OSI protocol you're using need to support this sort of physical layer. Its typically used on very primitive, low-bitrate connections (sensors mostly, although I've seen it used in highly sensitive installations using scada equipment). Bruce Schneier has a great piece on air gaps. I've included a link to it below. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/air_gaps.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/air_gaps.html
        commenter11 11y ago
        It's really not all that complicated. You get a couple of these Ethernet to 100FX converters: http://antaira.com/products/media-converters/unmanaged-converters/10-100tx-to-100fx/fcu-100sc?pid=200&gclid=CjwKEAjwqLWrBRC-_OaG-IfL0kASJAAbzKsVw109PZC7D5CTk_VjXs7TnEtSYRLjn0NfrpsCkI5Z1BoCTLLw_wcB http://antaira.com/products/media-converters/unmanaged-conve... Then you hook them up with just one fibre strand (instead of the usual 2). You obviously can't use TCP over that since that requires a 2-way connection, but UDP works just fine. You'll probably want to wrap your data in some error correcting code, too.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- schneidmaster 11y ago
  Completely disconnected. It refers to the physical metaphor of having a gap of air (no wired connections) between critical systems (like the flight software) and other systems (like the entertainment system), although it's sometimes implemented via software means such as cryptographic tunneling rather than a physical gap.
  - na85 11y ago
    >although it's sometimes implemented via software means such as cryptographic tunneling rather than a physical gap. I've never heard the term "air gap" refer to something that is actually only segmented in software, crypto or no.
    - KMag 11y ago
      Department of Defense requires air gaps between red and black[1] networks, but blackers[2] exist that can tunnel red traffic over block networks. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red/black_concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red/black_concept [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_(security) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_(security)
- josephmosby 11y ago
  "Air gapped" means that there is a physical separation between two networks (i.e., there's "air" between them). If two networks are physically connected, there is always a chance that someone could bypass any software security restrictions. If the two networks aren't physically connected, there's no way to gain access to one network from another. In this instance, the inflight entertainment network and the avionics network were physically connected, and the security researcher was able to gain access to the avionics network by connecting to the inflight entertainment network.
  - tobinfricke 11y ago
    The phrase no longer makes literal sense in this day of ubiquitous wireless communications. "If the two networks aren't physically connected, there's no way to gain access to one network from another" is no longer true.
    - sliverstorm 11y ago
      That's true, it's a bit of an anachronism. But everyone knows what it means. Like skeuomorphism. Nobody uses floppy disks anymore, yet the floppy logo is universal for "save".
      - vacri 11y ago
        It's depressing that the various rounds of Win 10 logos floating around all use the floppy-for-save concept. Floppies haven't been in vogue at all this century.
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        But "floppy for save" has been ubiquitous. Its not so much a skeumorph as a well-recognized ideograph.
    - bashinator 11y ago
      As long as we're being overly literal and pedantic, I'd like to point out that wireless connections are still physical, in that they utilize physics to make the connection.
- goatforce5 11y ago
  You can transfer files across an air gap using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet
  - rconti 11y ago
    You can try. Though sneakernetting your malicious payload into the cockpit while in-flight is not recommended.
Cacti 11y ago
So it's clear, Chris Roberts was referring to tests conducted in a simulator, not a plane. In fact it was a virtualized simulator at that, and one where the systems were purposefully put on the same bus in contradiction of what you'd find on an actual plane. On top of that, his claims to affect the engine were bunk and the most he accomplished was to listen in to network traffic, even with such a contrived scenario. The whole fiasco is BS. Airplane networks are as safe as it gets.
- zenocon 11y ago
  I'd agree here, and only add that if, in fact, he had accomplished manipulating command and control packets on a live plane, I doubt the FBI would have let him walk with a stern talking to and the loss of his personal computer effects.
- arca_vorago 11y ago
  Thanks for the info, that's why I added the qualifier about if, because I suspected it might be BS.
ytdht 11y ago
that makes me think of my local power plant that just installed valves to remotely control gas pressure in the pipelines ... I hope no-one hacks them.

rubicon33 11y ago

What does "air gapped" mean?

cheald 11y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
AngrySkillzz 11y ago
Means that they are not physically connected to the other systems, that there should be no possible way to reach the avionics from e.g. the in-flight entertainment system.
Zikes 11y ago
Roughly, not connected in any way.
minot 11y ago
> An air gap or air wall is a network security measure that consists of ensuring that a secure computer network is physically isolated from unsecured networks, such as the public Internet or an unsecured local area network. It is often taken for computers and networks that must be extraordinarily secure. Frequently the air gap is not completely literal, such as via the use of dedicated cryptographic devices that can tunnel packets over untrusted networks while avoiding packet rate or size variation; even in this case, there is no ability for computers on opposite sides of the air gap to communicate. The case above is an example cited as a life-critical system: > Computers used in aviation, such as FADECs and avionics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_(networking)
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  You can also accomplish a one-way airgap using optics that can only pass data in one direction.
  - saganus 11y ago
    Can you elaborate a bit more please? This sounds almost as if you configured a network adapter to only send and not receive, but you used "optics", so I'm guessing you refer to some sort of fibre-based device that actually impedes light to go in the other direction, and thus the security is via physical means?
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      > so I'm guessing you refer to some sort of fibre-based device that actually impedes light to go in the other direction, and thus the security is via physical means? Correct. To simplify, imagine a diode on one side and a photodetector cell on the other. On a microcontroller, this would be an opto-isolator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opto-isolator). Of course, the higher levels of the OSI protocol you're using need to support this sort of physical layer. Its typically used on very primitive, low-bitrate connections (sensors mostly, although I've seen it used in highly sensitive installations using scada equipment). Bruce Schneier has a great piece on air gaps. I've included a link to it below. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/air_gaps.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/10/air_gaps.html
      - commenter11 11y ago
        It's really not all that complicated. You get a couple of these Ethernet to 100FX converters: http://antaira.com/products/media-converters/unmanaged-converters/10-100tx-to-100fx/fcu-100sc?pid=200&gclid=CjwKEAjwqLWrBRC-_OaG-IfL0kASJAAbzKsVw109PZC7D5CTk_VjXs7TnEtSYRLjn0NfrpsCkI5Z1BoCTLLw_wcB http://antaira.com/products/media-converters/unmanaged-conve... Then you hook them up with just one fibre strand (instead of the usual 2). You obviously can't use TCP over that since that requires a 2-way connection, but UDP works just fine. You'll probably want to wrap your data in some error correcting code, too.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
schneidmaster 11y ago
Completely disconnected. It refers to the physical metaphor of having a gap of air (no wired connections) between critical systems (like the flight software) and other systems (like the entertainment system), although it's sometimes implemented via software means such as cryptographic tunneling rather than a physical gap.
- na85 11y ago
  >although it's sometimes implemented via software means such as cryptographic tunneling rather than a physical gap. I've never heard the term "air gap" refer to something that is actually only segmented in software, crypto or no.
  - KMag 11y ago
    Department of Defense requires air gaps between red and black[1] networks, but blackers[2] exist that can tunnel red traffic over block networks. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red/black_concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red/black_concept [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_(security) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacker_(security)
josephmosby 11y ago
"Air gapped" means that there is a physical separation between two networks (i.e., there's "air" between them). If two networks are physically connected, there is always a chance that someone could bypass any software security restrictions. If the two networks aren't physically connected, there's no way to gain access to one network from another. In this instance, the inflight entertainment network and the avionics network were physically connected, and the security researcher was able to gain access to the avionics network by connecting to the inflight entertainment network.
- tobinfricke 11y ago
  The phrase no longer makes literal sense in this day of ubiquitous wireless communications. "If the two networks aren't physically connected, there's no way to gain access to one network from another" is no longer true.
  - sliverstorm 11y ago
    That's true, it's a bit of an anachronism. But everyone knows what it means. Like skeuomorphism. Nobody uses floppy disks anymore, yet the floppy logo is universal for "save".
    - vacri 11y ago
      It's depressing that the various rounds of Win 10 logos floating around all use the floppy-for-save concept. Floppies haven't been in vogue at all this century.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        But "floppy for save" has been ubiquitous. Its not so much a skeumorph as a well-recognized ideograph.
  - bashinator 11y ago
    As long as we're being overly literal and pedantic, I'd like to point out that wireless connections are still physical, in that they utilize physics to make the connection.
goatforce5 11y ago
You can transfer files across an air gap using: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet
- rconti 11y ago
  You can try. Though sneakernetting your malicious payload into the cockpit while in-flight is not recommended.

Cacti 11y ago

So it's clear, Chris Roberts was referring to tests conducted in a simulator, not a plane. In fact it was a virtualized simulator at that, and one where the systems were purposefully put on the same bus in contradiction of what you'd find on an actual plane. On top of that, his claims to affect the engine were bunk and the most he accomplished was to listen in to network traffic, even with such a contrived scenario. The whole fiasco is BS. Airplane networks are as safe as it gets.

zenocon 11y ago
I'd agree here, and only add that if, in fact, he had accomplished manipulating command and control packets on a live plane, I doubt the FBI would have let him walk with a stern talking to and the loss of his personal computer effects.
arca_vorago 11y ago
Thanks for the info, that's why I added the qualifier about if, because I suspected it might be BS.

ytdht 11y ago

that makes me think of my local power plant that just installed valves to remotely control gas pressure in the pipelines ... I hope no-one hacks them.