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Consider that a lot of people that are in that situation probably come from a background that is less positive than the one that you use for reference when maki

Consider that a lot of people that are in that situation probably come from a background that is less positive than the one that you use for reference when making those statements. It's a parent's duty to guide and assist their children's choices, but a lot of people don't get such guidance, and in may cases they don't get the basic nurting needed to become an independent adult in today's world. So they do have less chances.

logicchains 11y ago
There are also people who come from fairly awful backgrounds and still manage to forge successful lives for themselves. How? They make different choices than the people who never manage to escape the circumstances of their birth. >basic nurturing needed to become an independent adult in today's world I'm not sure what you mean here. The people I've met from poorer backgrounds are some of the most independent people I know. Adversity breeds self-reliance.
saiya-jin 11y ago
Not contradicting per se, but this world ain't fair. From birth, even before, some have higher odds for survival, have better health, are more clever etc. In my point, there are 2 types of people for this perspective - "lazy" ones, that don't strive for better, avoid hard things. They don't plan much, and given a choice of hard(er) work from now, for couple of years, and only after that seeing improvement (ie higher salary), most won't do it. Which is OK, if they accept the whole package of matters (which is rarely the case, hence class envy leftist politicians so easily live from). And then you have opposite side. Of course world is not bipolar, but you get the picture. This is what I actually like about current world - in this respect, it's much more fair than ever before. By far not for everybody, but literally billions of people have chance to drive their own life, within some boundaries. Every single day, life gives us opportunities, sometimes obvious, sometimes not at all. Parents can (and do) "install" a lot of strength or weakness into their kids, but apart from truly abusive screwed up environments, once kids leave home, they are masters of their own fate. I've met people using not-so-ideal childhood as an excuse why they have screwed up life, but when looking closely, they consistently fail questions like "so why did you went binge drinking last night instead of learning a bit of that language/whatever"? Heck, even I am using my free time mostly only for leisure and fun, but I am happy and not complaining.
- Enzolangellotti 11y ago
  Yeah, those bums working 2 shifts to just put food on the table are certainly lazy, I mean they could forego sleep and study their way into Harvard instead. Also let's ignore the three billion people living on less than 2.50$ per day, after all there are "billions" having a chance (somehow I got the feeling those "billions" are made up). That's why we can't have a nice debate on wealth inequality and work ethics. Even on a place like HN, some commenters will ignore all the evidence, back away from the available data and disperse their anecdotal pearls of wisdom. I'm not bashing you in particular, but seriously, let's get real. The world is a shit place, and that's it, let's not lie to ourselves by adding some random justification in search of a primal cause. Some are born lucky, some are not. Some become lucky, some don't. Some forge their own paths, some don't. Some are lazy, some are not. Extrapolating a general rule is pointless.

logicchains 11y ago

There are also people who come from fairly awful backgrounds and still manage to forge successful lives for themselves. How? They make different choices than the people who never manage to escape the circumstances of their birth. >basic nurturing needed to become an independent adult in today's world I'm not sure what you mean here. The people I've met from poorer backgrounds are some of the most independent people I know. Adversity breeds self-reliance.

saiya-jin 11y ago

Not contradicting per se, but this world ain't fair. From birth, even before, some have higher odds for survival, have better health, are more clever etc. In my point, there are 2 types of people for this perspective - "lazy" ones, that don't strive for better, avoid hard things. They don't plan much, and given a choice of hard(er) work from now, for couple of years, and only after that seeing improvement (ie higher salary), most won't do it. Which is OK, if they accept the whole package of matters (which is rarely the case, hence class envy leftist politicians so easily live from). And then you have opposite side. Of course world is not bipolar, but you get the picture. This is what I actually like about current world - in this respect, it's much more fair than ever before. By far not for everybody, but literally billions of people have chance to drive their own life, within some boundaries. Every single day, life gives us opportunities, sometimes obvious, sometimes not at all. Parents can (and do) "install" a lot of strength or weakness into their kids, but apart from truly abusive screwed up environments, once kids leave home, they are masters of their own fate. I've met people using not-so-ideal childhood as an excuse why they have screwed up life, but when looking closely, they consistently fail questions like "so why did you went binge drinking last night instead of learning a bit of that language/whatever"? Heck, even I am using my free time mostly only for leisure and fun, but I am happy and not complaining.

Enzolangellotti 11y ago
Yeah, those bums working 2 shifts to just put food on the table are certainly lazy, I mean they could forego sleep and study their way into Harvard instead. Also let's ignore the three billion people living on less than 2.50$ per day, after all there are "billions" having a chance (somehow I got the feeling those "billions" are made up). That's why we can't have a nice debate on wealth inequality and work ethics. Even on a place like HN, some commenters will ignore all the evidence, back away from the available data and disperse their anecdotal pearls of wisdom. I'm not bashing you in particular, but seriously, let's get real. The world is a shit place, and that's it, let's not lie to ourselves by adding some random justification in search of a primal cause. Some are born lucky, some are not. Some become lucky, some don't. Some forge their own paths, some don't. Some are lazy, some are not. Extrapolating a general rule is pointless.