4 ms·

Tip: Remove the "plans" page. This thing is too early stage to start talking about $ plans. Nobody even knows what the hell this is or what it is good for. You

by nbevans 11y ago

Tip: Remove the "plans" page. This thing is too early stage to start talking about $ plans. Nobody even knows what the hell this is or what it is good for. Your business model should be as follows: 1. Make something new, useful and free. 2. Get people hooked on it, like a drug. 3. Grow a modest user base. 4. Introduce "value added" features, marked as preview or beta, for enterprise customers and integration into other web services. 5. Once features added in step 4 have matured, remove the beta clauses and slap a price tag on them.

liquidise 11y ago
i disagree with this assessment. What harm is there in having a pricing page? I'd support offering a free option, but why on earth would you ever disallow willing customers from paying you money? On the contrary, i am now tempted to build a "Buy" button on a basic marketing page before i ever write a line of code on future product ideas.
- Mandatum 11y ago
  "Plans" was the first thing I clicked on because I wanted to try it out, and then there's no free option so I clicked that little "X" by my tab. I actually have a use case for this and so do a few people I know, and I'd love to try it out.. But you've got to be kidding if you think I'm going to give out my payment data to try a website version of FollowThatPage.
blowski 11y ago
I agree that the landing page needs some work to make it clear what the product does, and why I would want to pay for it. However I disagree that you must start by offering the service for free. By charging from day one, you can limit your user base only to those people who are prepared to pay for it. You're less likely to get explosive growth this way, but it's easier to keep the service running as you're not subsidising freeloaders. One of the assumptions in an MVP is that people are prepared to pay for the service, and you can only establish that by requiring people to part with cash as early as possible.
bliti 11y ago
I sell products that don't even have a website. Even sell products that are not even finished. That doesn't stop people from paying for them or finding then useful. In fact, I close a client once a month in b2b sales and I don't even know how to sell that well. If I followed your plan, I'd be out if money and my clients would have way more problems.
- joshmn 11y ago
  Would love to hear some actionable tips or insight, or resources you found useful.
  - bliti 11y ago
    I mean, its not that complicated. I just talk to people and ask if I can talk to them about their business problems. I only do it with people I've sort of met before because I'm afraid of cold sales (based on a pure fear of rejection). For example: Last Saturday was my kids birthday party. We invited her friends from school. The parents stayed for the party, which turned out to be great. I knew of the parents was a lawyer. I say hi to her and outright ask her if I could drop by her office to talk about making her life easier through the use of software. That is literally what I said. She smiled and said 'Yes! I need to organize myself better. Please, visit me next Wednesday (tomorrow). I will be there and you can help me.'I was afraid of asking here. Lawyers are scary! But they are also the kind of business owner who relies on technology to get their job done. Document management, appointments, client tracking, billing, etc. So I'm going there tomorrow, with absolutely no plan to sell anything. But an interest in understanding what she needs and wants. Notice that I don't sell one product. I'm looking to build products for them and them charge them a monthly fee. It takes me about a week or so to build something that (barely) works. Which then gives them the chance to use it and give me feedback. Who knows if one of those products will turn into something big? The aim is not to have an idea for a product, but to find actual needs/wants from businesses and building a product to solve it. The exact opposite of what people normally do. Dont focus on an idea, focus on other peoples problems.
    - joshmn 11y ago
encoderer 11y ago
Absolutely, 100% disagree. Paying customers are not a foregone conclusion. You need proof, and product guidance, and you need it early and often. I agree with you about only focusing on the essential at first. I too believe in launching a very MVP and I launched my saas service without even a way to rebill a customer, knowing I had 30 days to finish that. But the plans and subscription are essential for launch unless your product is not stable, in which case you should do an invite-only beta with your friends.
zongitsrinzler 11y ago
Random guy from HN says: "Your business model should be as follows", geez.. I have found that in most cases asking for money earlier than later is the way to go. There is a difference between finding users and finding users willing to pay.
- nbevans 11y ago
  I don't apologise for cutting to the chase. I took issue with the pricing model and suggested a way that, I think, would be better suited. There is a different between those types of users, yes, but frankly that is a nicer problem to have than just finding any users at all. What I'm suggesting is not without precedent. Pretty much every SV startup looks to build user base first and monetise later.
  - rimantas 11y ago
    And pretty much every money making company is the opposite?
  - blowski 11y ago
    There are some successful business models that get massive funding, and go for explosive growth. These often work well for services that either have massive economies of scale (Amazon), or strong network effects (Facebook). But another business model is to grow slowly, focusing on profitability along the way, and this works well for businesses in a niche (Pingdom), with low network effects (Basecamp) or high marginal cost per user (Digital Ocean). If a business with high marginal costs per user and low network effects goes after explosive growth by subsidising users, they run the risk of running out of cash before the point they have enough profit to cover the subsidy. There are lots of exceptions - Spotify and Dropbox come to mind. But there are lots more forgotten startups that incorrectly thought "If we get eyeballs and engagement, the revenue will follow".
    - nbevans 11y ago
      I should have known throwing in the SV comparison here would cause this tangent. Oh well. The point is really that this was a Show HN post about a little hack someone put together in probably a single weekend. And with a totally unproven product idea, unexplained use cases let alone what ROI might look like, he has already put in place not just a 1 price plan, but a full swathe from startup to corporate customer. It just seems massively over the top at this very very early stage. A simple disclaimer indicating that he is monitoring API usage, for now, along with a donation button and a "let's talk if you want to use this in an enterprise environment" etc, would have been sufficient. I wish the guy well, honestly. But there is something to be said of taking things a bit more slowly and progressively. Verify the product idea is at all viable first. Before showing your full hand with badly conceived product plans. Those plans could very well be doing more harm than good. Until you've gathered feedback from customers you don't know if those $ values are a million miles of the expected mark. And the fact there is no free plan for even limited testing is ridiculous really.
js4 11y ago
This is horrible advice. Charge as early as you can.
curiously 11y ago
> 1. Make something new, useful and free. FREE IS NOT A FEATURE

by nbevans 11y ago

liquidise 11y ago

i disagree with this assessment. What harm is there in having a pricing page? I'd support offering a free option, but why on earth would you ever disallow willing customers from paying you money? On the contrary, i am now tempted to build a "Buy" button on a basic marketing page before i ever write a line of code on future product ideas.

Mandatum 11y ago
"Plans" was the first thing I clicked on because I wanted to try it out, and then there's no free option so I clicked that little "X" by my tab. I actually have a use case for this and so do a few people I know, and I'd love to try it out.. But you've got to be kidding if you think I'm going to give out my payment data to try a website version of FollowThatPage.

blowski 11y ago

I agree that the landing page needs some work to make it clear what the product does, and why I would want to pay for it. However I disagree that you must start by offering the service for free. By charging from day one, you can limit your user base only to those people who are prepared to pay for it. You're less likely to get explosive growth this way, but it's easier to keep the service running as you're not subsidising freeloaders. One of the assumptions in an MVP is that people are prepared to pay for the service, and you can only establish that by requiring people to part with cash as early as possible.

bliti 11y ago

I sell products that don't even have a website. Even sell products that are not even finished. That doesn't stop people from paying for them or finding then useful. In fact, I close a client once a month in b2b sales and I don't even know how to sell that well. If I followed your plan, I'd be out if money and my clients would have way more problems.

joshmn 11y ago
Would love to hear some actionable tips or insight, or resources you found useful.
- bliti 11y ago
  I mean, its not that complicated. I just talk to people and ask if I can talk to them about their business problems. I only do it with people I've sort of met before because I'm afraid of cold sales (based on a pure fear of rejection). For example: Last Saturday was my kids birthday party. We invited her friends from school. The parents stayed for the party, which turned out to be great. I knew of the parents was a lawyer. I say hi to her and outright ask her if I could drop by her office to talk about making her life easier through the use of software. That is literally what I said. She smiled and said 'Yes! I need to organize myself better. Please, visit me next Wednesday (tomorrow). I will be there and you can help me.'I was afraid of asking here. Lawyers are scary! But they are also the kind of business owner who relies on technology to get their job done. Document management, appointments, client tracking, billing, etc. So I'm going there tomorrow, with absolutely no plan to sell anything. But an interest in understanding what she needs and wants. Notice that I don't sell one product. I'm looking to build products for them and them charge them a monthly fee. It takes me about a week or so to build something that (barely) works. Which then gives them the chance to use it and give me feedback. Who knows if one of those products will turn into something big? The aim is not to have an idea for a product, but to find actual needs/wants from businesses and building a product to solve it. The exact opposite of what people normally do. Dont focus on an idea, focus on other peoples problems.
  - joshmn 11y ago

encoderer 11y ago

Absolutely, 100% disagree. Paying customers are not a foregone conclusion. You need proof, and product guidance, and you need it early and often. I agree with you about only focusing on the essential at first. I too believe in launching a very MVP and I launched my saas service without even a way to rebill a customer, knowing I had 30 days to finish that. But the plans and subscription are essential for launch unless your product is not stable, in which case you should do an invite-only beta with your friends.

zongitsrinzler 11y ago

Random guy from HN says: "Your business model should be as follows", geez.. I have found that in most cases asking for money earlier than later is the way to go. There is a difference between finding users and finding users willing to pay.

nbevans 11y ago
I don't apologise for cutting to the chase. I took issue with the pricing model and suggested a way that, I think, would be better suited. There is a different between those types of users, yes, but frankly that is a nicer problem to have than just finding any users at all. What I'm suggesting is not without precedent. Pretty much every SV startup looks to build user base first and monetise later.
- rimantas 11y ago
  And pretty much every money making company is the opposite?
- blowski 11y ago
  There are some successful business models that get massive funding, and go for explosive growth. These often work well for services that either have massive economies of scale (Amazon), or strong network effects (Facebook). But another business model is to grow slowly, focusing on profitability along the way, and this works well for businesses in a niche (Pingdom), with low network effects (Basecamp) or high marginal cost per user (Digital Ocean). If a business with high marginal costs per user and low network effects goes after explosive growth by subsidising users, they run the risk of running out of cash before the point they have enough profit to cover the subsidy. There are lots of exceptions - Spotify and Dropbox come to mind. But there are lots more forgotten startups that incorrectly thought "If we get eyeballs and engagement, the revenue will follow".
  - nbevans 11y ago
    I should have known throwing in the SV comparison here would cause this tangent. Oh well. The point is really that this was a Show HN post about a little hack someone put together in probably a single weekend. And with a totally unproven product idea, unexplained use cases let alone what ROI might look like, he has already put in place not just a 1 price plan, but a full swathe from startup to corporate customer. It just seems massively over the top at this very very early stage. A simple disclaimer indicating that he is monitoring API usage, for now, along with a donation button and a "let's talk if you want to use this in an enterprise environment" etc, would have been sufficient. I wish the guy well, honestly. But there is something to be said of taking things a bit more slowly and progressively. Verify the product idea is at all viable first. Before showing your full hand with badly conceived product plans. Those plans could very well be doing more harm than good. Until you've gathered feedback from customers you don't know if those $ values are a million miles of the expected mark. And the fact there is no free plan for even limited testing is ridiculous really.

js4 11y ago

This is horrible advice. Charge as early as you can.

curiously 11y ago

> 1. Make something new, useful and free. FREE IS NOT A FEATURE