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I've been living in SG for a year and the startup scene here is asthmatic at best. Really, it would be generous to call it a "scene". It isn't. If you can docum

by nbevans 11y ago

I've been living in SG for a year and the startup scene here is asthmatic at best. Really, it would be generous to call it a "scene". It isn't. If you can document all the startups in a country on a single infographic then... yeah. The government claim to support startups but actually they barely do anything. There is a Entrepreneur Visa but you need a serious amount of funding, proof of intellectual property (even patents), backing of a VC or incubator, and credibility in the industry to get it. And even then the visa granted is dependent on your startup making hires of local citizens at a certain rate per year, in line with revenues. The actual visa itself is also relatively short term, it is basically issued on 12 month periods which isn't really enough to provide assurance and stability to a startup director. The culture here is all wrong. The culture here is to go to Uni, attaining 2 degrees is not uncommon, then get a boring job in a mega corporate. And then spend the rest of your life twiddling your thumbs, stabbing and getting stabbed in the back, etc etc, where the gossip often revolves around bullshit job title acronyms like VP, ED etc. That is just the life here. If you ain't working in a mega corp then you are a nobody. And that's not my opinion, I have many many friends here that tell me straight that that is how life is here. There is also an issue that working in "I.T." in Asia is stereotyped also. It is perceived as a somewhat low skilled office job. Even if you are a top level super senior software developer, try explaining that and most people will still just file you under "I.T." in their minds and maintain a superiority complex over you if they work in a dead-end mega corp job dealing in Excel Spreadsheets all day every day. If you work in an actual startup in SG you are "different". You are seen as abnormal, risky and even stereotyped as "not being good enough" to work in a mega corp. When I first came here I was introducing myself as "working on my startup". Most people assumed, seriously, I was just being shy about explaining I was unemployed at that moment, and they wanted to quickly change the subject. Even after clarifying that it is indeed profit making and growing well. So yes, saying your working on a startup here is actually almost as bad as saying you are unemployed. I learnt a better way of doing self introductions very quickly here.

crdb 11y ago
Source: been here three years and counting... You forget that the EntrePass (the entrepreneur visa you speak of) requires investors/VCs from an approved list, all of which are Singaporean; and that even SEEDS funding requires a local investor. So if you're foreign, or even local but with foreign investors (like, say, a US VC), no funding. I talked to these investors and they either aren't investing or want to see 30k/month in revenue. I suspect people were buying themselves residencies with the EntrePass at a fraction of the investor visa amount so they made it ineffective as a visa. On the visa side, I've seen a lot of people play some kind of musical chairs. The key is the local director, so you pay a few hundred dollars to a firm to hold that directorship whilst incorporating, apply for an EP (standard work visa) for yourself which comes through in 7 working days, and then get the local directorship assigned to your EP. This does involve plugging in 50k or so of capital and paying yourself 8k/month (SGD) out of it (income tax being quite low it's not too onerous). I don't like playing games with immigration (I don't know if the EP local directorship game is officious or a hack soon to be eliminated) so my startup is incorporated in the UK and Hong Kong until I get PR (I did Hong Kong first, but the paperwork and agent fees just killed me - I'd rather pay an accountant and 20% corp tax). That local directorship rule is a real pain in Singapore and I hope a government official is reading this. That being said, if you are a local (citizen/PR), it is cheap and very fast to incorporate a Private Limited, the rule of law is exemplary, taxes are low, and it's probably the most visa-friendly first world country in the world. Status-wise I think a lot of bankers and MBAs are getting into "startups", unfortunately, and just as in the US it's become an acceptable career path. I don't think the feeling towards startups is any different from say, most European countries, amongst the older folk. Singapore's startup scene suffers from the same problem every non-Valley startup scene suffers: the best valuations and deal speed that we hear of in the Valley doesn't really exist anywhere else. For example, I remember calculating that the Bay Area received around 20x as much venture funding as the entire of the United Kingdom, despite the latter's status as an old startup hub containing the world's largest non-US financial centre. The causes have been debated to death in many places, I personally favor the "lack of big exits locally" explanation, which makes it hard for local investors to want to touch the asset class and in turn disincentivizes talent from getting into startups (mostly, they go to the US). When it takes you 6 months instead of 2 weeks to close a round, and you give up 20% instead of 7% for the seed round, it's much harder to grow that into a global business. edit - just noticed who the author was. Strongly recommend London based folks go meet him! Zach is a fantastic guy and the kind of investor I would LOVE to have in my startup (if I had investors).
- creamyhorror 11y ago
  Nice rundown - you've clearly done the foreign-startup runabout, and "lack of big exits locally" is also my thesis for why startups & their valuations aren't so positive. The fact is that Asian investors haven't seen big paydays from new ventures, so they're all demanding traction or recurring revenue instead of risking funds on unproven businesses. I've also been struggling with this. We startup HN people in Singapore should have a beer sometime, would be great to trade stories/news. Send me an email (check my profile) if you/anyone is interested.
  - crdb 11y ago
    I try to go to Hackerspace and the JFDI friday beers, I think that's where you find the mass. But yeah, not much participation, nowhere near US levels. The Big Data group has more people. These days I don't really get out of the house much, too much work! I've found it easy to find investors but when you can make the funding in consulting revenue in 6 months, without giving up equity, it's hard to accept the idea of funding. Provided one has permission to work in SG (the client can sponsor an EP, remember!) it's just much better to bootstrap, I think. Oh, how I envy the Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, who can toil 100% of the time on their startup, without worrying about paying the rent. Still not worth moving.
    - creamyhorror 11y ago
      I don't think it's so easy to make that sort of money from consulting revenue so quickly, unless you have serious skills, a good portfolio, and access to good potential clients (which I guess you have, especially as a foreigner). But I haven't done consulting, so what do I know. I hope to cross over to the US or a bigger market to raise the next round of funding! At least the valuations will be a good bit nicer. Catch you at a JFDI Friday event maybe; I don't go to Hackerspace often.
maxwin 11y ago
so true!
Rifu 11y ago
Been working here as a software developer for a year and my experience is pretty similar. Part of the problem might be that the moment you introduce yourself as working on anything software related it just turns into IT and images of tech repair.
jacquesm 11y ago
> Most people assumed, seriously, I was just being shy about explaining I was unemployed at that moment That's not limited to Singapore. My mom basically decided I was 'unemployed' roughly up until the point that I employed her (after running a middling successful company for about 2 decades...). People will think whatever they want, just ignore it and concentrate on the work rather than on whatever social recognition you derive from running your own company. And besides, for some part of my career being 'unemployed' and 'running my own company' might as well have been synonymous so maybe she was on to something after all ;).
coldtea 11y ago
>And even then the visa granted is dependent on your startup making hires of local citizens at a certain rate per year, in line with revenues. So they don't just let you come in their country, use its resources and whatever advantages it offers to make you pick it, and not give anything back in jobs?

by nbevans 11y ago

crdb 11y ago

Source: been here three years and counting... You forget that the EntrePass (the entrepreneur visa you speak of) requires investors/VCs from an approved list, all of which are Singaporean; and that even SEEDS funding requires a local investor. So if you're foreign, or even local but with foreign investors (like, say, a US VC), no funding. I talked to these investors and they either aren't investing or want to see 30k/month in revenue. I suspect people were buying themselves residencies with the EntrePass at a fraction of the investor visa amount so they made it ineffective as a visa. On the visa side, I've seen a lot of people play some kind of musical chairs. The key is the local director, so you pay a few hundred dollars to a firm to hold that directorship whilst incorporating, apply for an EP (standard work visa) for yourself which comes through in 7 working days, and then get the local directorship assigned to your EP. This does involve plugging in 50k or so of capital and paying yourself 8k/month (SGD) out of it (income tax being quite low it's not too onerous). I don't like playing games with immigration (I don't know if the EP local directorship game is officious or a hack soon to be eliminated) so my startup is incorporated in the UK and Hong Kong until I get PR (I did Hong Kong first, but the paperwork and agent fees just killed me - I'd rather pay an accountant and 20% corp tax). That local directorship rule is a real pain in Singapore and I hope a government official is reading this. That being said, if you are a local (citizen/PR), it is cheap and very fast to incorporate a Private Limited, the rule of law is exemplary, taxes are low, and it's probably the most visa-friendly first world country in the world. Status-wise I think a lot of bankers and MBAs are getting into "startups", unfortunately, and just as in the US it's become an acceptable career path. I don't think the feeling towards startups is any different from say, most European countries, amongst the older folk. Singapore's startup scene suffers from the same problem every non-Valley startup scene suffers: the best valuations and deal speed that we hear of in the Valley doesn't really exist anywhere else. For example, I remember calculating that the Bay Area received around 20x as much venture funding as the entire of the United Kingdom, despite the latter's status as an old startup hub containing the world's largest non-US financial centre. The causes have been debated to death in many places, I personally favor the "lack of big exits locally" explanation, which makes it hard for local investors to want to touch the asset class and in turn disincentivizes talent from getting into startups (mostly, they go to the US). When it takes you 6 months instead of 2 weeks to close a round, and you give up 20% instead of 7% for the seed round, it's much harder to grow that into a global business. edit - just noticed who the author was. Strongly recommend London based folks go meet him! Zach is a fantastic guy and the kind of investor I would LOVE to have in my startup (if I had investors).

creamyhorror 11y ago
Nice rundown - you've clearly done the foreign-startup runabout, and "lack of big exits locally" is also my thesis for why startups & their valuations aren't so positive. The fact is that Asian investors haven't seen big paydays from new ventures, so they're all demanding traction or recurring revenue instead of risking funds on unproven businesses. I've also been struggling with this. We startup HN people in Singapore should have a beer sometime, would be great to trade stories/news. Send me an email (check my profile) if you/anyone is interested.
- crdb 11y ago
  I try to go to Hackerspace and the JFDI friday beers, I think that's where you find the mass. But yeah, not much participation, nowhere near US levels. The Big Data group has more people. These days I don't really get out of the house much, too much work! I've found it easy to find investors but when you can make the funding in consulting revenue in 6 months, without giving up equity, it's hard to accept the idea of funding. Provided one has permission to work in SG (the client can sponsor an EP, remember!) it's just much better to bootstrap, I think. Oh, how I envy the Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, who can toil 100% of the time on their startup, without worrying about paying the rent. Still not worth moving.
  - creamyhorror 11y ago
    I don't think it's so easy to make that sort of money from consulting revenue so quickly, unless you have serious skills, a good portfolio, and access to good potential clients (which I guess you have, especially as a foreigner). But I haven't done consulting, so what do I know. I hope to cross over to the US or a bigger market to raise the next round of funding! At least the valuations will be a good bit nicer. Catch you at a JFDI Friday event maybe; I don't go to Hackerspace often.

maxwin 11y ago

so true!

Rifu 11y ago

Been working here as a software developer for a year and my experience is pretty similar. Part of the problem might be that the moment you introduce yourself as working on anything software related it just turns into IT and images of tech repair.

jacquesm 11y ago

> Most people assumed, seriously, I was just being shy about explaining I was unemployed at that moment That's not limited to Singapore. My mom basically decided I was 'unemployed' roughly up until the point that I employed her (after running a middling successful company for about 2 decades...). People will think whatever they want, just ignore it and concentrate on the work rather than on whatever social recognition you derive from running your own company. And besides, for some part of my career being 'unemployed' and 'running my own company' might as well have been synonymous so maybe she was on to something after all ;).

coldtea 11y ago

>And even then the visa granted is dependent on your startup making hires of local citizens at a certain rate per year, in line with revenues. So they don't just let you come in their country, use its resources and whatever advantages it offers to make you pick it, and not give anything back in jobs?