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It's a bit curious that the response to population concerns is that we can feed ourselves. There is much more to life than mere subsistence. The world can not

It's a bit curious that the response to population concerns is that we can feed ourselves. There is much more to life than mere subsistence. The world can not all live like Americans. There aren't presently enough resources for this to happen. Maybe when we mine the moon and asteroids but not right now. Great harm from the population explosion has been done. The environmental damage is enormous. Yes, we can still feed ourselves but this is not the only aspect of population growth fears.

ars 11y ago
> The world can not all live like Americans. People say this all the time, but it's simply not true. There is no limit to our resources because they can be recycled endlessly. The atoms don't wear out. The only input necessary is energy, and we are working hard to make that cheaper and cleaner.
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Your last paragraph indicates that you agree with me. I did specify that at this time the world can not all live like Americans. I left open the possibility that in the future this might no longer be true. Hence I don't understand the point of your response. You agree with my statement in the second paragraph but disagree with it in the first. You also ingored the part about environmental damage.
  - ars 11y ago
    You don't have to mine the moon. The Earth is sufficient. > I did specify that at this time the world can not all live like Americans. No. Even right now we can all live like Americans. For animals, resources are limited. What is there, is what is there. It's not like that for human. Humans create resources if they need them. If the whole world wanted to live like Americans we could create the needed resources. Doing so thoughtlessly creates pollution, but it's not an essential part of the process.
- stouset 11y ago
  Energy is still limited. At our long-term growth rate of energy use, we have fewer than 300 years before we start observing warming from thermodynamic limits on energy dissipation[1]. This is completely independent of the method of energy production, and simply a function of how quickly the Earth is capable of radiating thermal energy out into space. [1]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-e...
  - ars 11y ago
    That should be great fun :) If we use energy in such prodigious amounts we should have no problem getting into space.
- coldtea 11y ago
  >People say this all the time, but it's simply not true. There is no limit to our resources because they can be recycled endlessly. The atoms don't wear out. Maybe atoms don't wear out, but neither can resources (that are not merely inter-changeable atoms) be "recycled endlessly". You cannot "create petrol" after it runs out, for example, unless you spend more energy that you get from it, which defeats the purpose. And there are tons of minerals we use that are of limited supply and non-recycle once used. Besides any "recycle" cycle creates byproducts that we can't pile up forever.
  - ars 11y ago
    > You cannot "create petrol" after it runs out ... unless you spend ... energy I mentioned energy already. If you have energy you can literally create petrol from thin air. > And there are tons of minerals we use that are of limited supply and non-recycle once used. No there aren't. If you think there are any then post the name of one. > Besides any "recycle" cycle creates byproducts that we can't pile up forever. Those byproducts are made of useful atoms, there is no reason we can not process them. It costs energy to do so, so it's not worth it right now, but that doesn't mean it will always be like that. The Earth will never run out of resources, it can't. All you need is energy, and the universe has a stupendous amount of that, we just need to harness it.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >No there aren't. If you think there are any then post the name of one. Here's a handy list: http://www.visualcapitalist.com/forecast-when-well-run-out-of-each-metal/ http://www.visualcapitalist.com/forecast-when-well-run-out-o... >The Earth will never run out of resources, it can't. All you need is energy, and the universe has a stupendous amount of that, we just need to harness it. You started with how we can't ever run out of resources, and then you added the proviso of harnessing universe's "stupendous amount of energy" (plus finding ways to make those resources by recycling -- and in a non-lossy way at that). In the actual world, where we don't have this unlimited tappable energy at hand at the moment (and with the limitations of energy production methods) we can very much run out of resources. Whole lot of technological leaps to get from were we currently are to this "we tap into the universe's energy supplies with great success" and "we recycle everything" state.
vorg 11y ago
> The world can not all live like Americans If the recent trend of Chinese and Indians immigrating to the U.S. continues and the decline of birth rate for U.S. Caucasians continues, by 2050 the U.S. population may roughly reflect the world population by ethnicity, i.e. equal numbers of Caucasian, African, Hispanic, Indian, and East Asians. If there's a collapse around 2050 as predicted and the world population needs to suddenly reduce from 9 billion to 500 million, such an immigration-based country with control of the world's oceans and weapons would find it easy to convince its population that citizenship is the best determiner of who survives and who doesn't. There'd probably also be some religious overtones when the U.S. government sells the idea to its people.

ars 11y ago

> The world can not all live like Americans. People say this all the time, but it's simply not true. There is no limit to our resources because they can be recycled endlessly. The atoms don't wear out. The only input necessary is energy, and we are working hard to make that cheaper and cleaner.

yequalsx 11y ago
Your last paragraph indicates that you agree with me. I did specify that at this time the world can not all live like Americans. I left open the possibility that in the future this might no longer be true. Hence I don't understand the point of your response. You agree with my statement in the second paragraph but disagree with it in the first. You also ingored the part about environmental damage.
- ars 11y ago
  You don't have to mine the moon. The Earth is sufficient. > I did specify that at this time the world can not all live like Americans. No. Even right now we can all live like Americans. For animals, resources are limited. What is there, is what is there. It's not like that for human. Humans create resources if they need them. If the whole world wanted to live like Americans we could create the needed resources. Doing so thoughtlessly creates pollution, but it's not an essential part of the process.
stouset 11y ago
Energy is still limited. At our long-term growth rate of energy use, we have fewer than 300 years before we start observing warming from thermodynamic limits on energy dissipation[1]. This is completely independent of the method of energy production, and simply a function of how quickly the Earth is capable of radiating thermal energy out into space. [1]: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/ http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-e...
- ars 11y ago
  That should be great fun :) If we use energy in such prodigious amounts we should have no problem getting into space.
coldtea 11y ago
>People say this all the time, but it's simply not true. There is no limit to our resources because they can be recycled endlessly. The atoms don't wear out. Maybe atoms don't wear out, but neither can resources (that are not merely inter-changeable atoms) be "recycled endlessly". You cannot "create petrol" after it runs out, for example, unless you spend more energy that you get from it, which defeats the purpose. And there are tons of minerals we use that are of limited supply and non-recycle once used. Besides any "recycle" cycle creates byproducts that we can't pile up forever.
- ars 11y ago
  > You cannot "create petrol" after it runs out ... unless you spend ... energy I mentioned energy already. If you have energy you can literally create petrol from thin air. > And there are tons of minerals we use that are of limited supply and non-recycle once used. No there aren't. If you think there are any then post the name of one. > Besides any "recycle" cycle creates byproducts that we can't pile up forever. Those byproducts are made of useful atoms, there is no reason we can not process them. It costs energy to do so, so it's not worth it right now, but that doesn't mean it will always be like that. The Earth will never run out of resources, it can't. All you need is energy, and the universe has a stupendous amount of that, we just need to harness it.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >No there aren't. If you think there are any then post the name of one. Here's a handy list: http://www.visualcapitalist.com/forecast-when-well-run-out-of-each-metal/ http://www.visualcapitalist.com/forecast-when-well-run-out-o... >The Earth will never run out of resources, it can't. All you need is energy, and the universe has a stupendous amount of that, we just need to harness it. You started with how we can't ever run out of resources, and then you added the proviso of harnessing universe's "stupendous amount of energy" (plus finding ways to make those resources by recycling -- and in a non-lossy way at that). In the actual world, where we don't have this unlimited tappable energy at hand at the moment (and with the limitations of energy production methods) we can very much run out of resources. Whole lot of technological leaps to get from were we currently are to this "we tap into the universe's energy supplies with great success" and "we recycle everything" state.

vorg 11y ago

> The world can not all live like Americans If the recent trend of Chinese and Indians immigrating to the U.S. continues and the decline of birth rate for U.S. Caucasians continues, by 2050 the U.S. population may roughly reflect the world population by ethnicity, i.e. equal numbers of Caucasian, African, Hispanic, Indian, and East Asians. If there's a collapse around 2050 as predicted and the world population needs to suddenly reduce from 9 billion to 500 million, such an immigration-based country with control of the world's oceans and weapons would find it easy to convince its population that citizenship is the best determiner of who survives and who doesn't. There'd probably also be some religious overtones when the U.S. government sells the idea to its people.