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So it's very hard to get all PyPy devs to focus on Python 3.3. Money can change the direction, but there are also features that are important to us, like warmup

by fijal 11y ago

So it's very hard to get all PyPy devs to focus on Python 3.3. Money can change the direction, but there are also features that are important to us, like warmup time and STM that we don't want to give up for 3.3. Additionally, 3.3 has very little business value. All PyPy customers use Python 2 (the ones that can buy commercial support at least) and small performance improvements matter more to them.

plorkyeran 11y ago
> All PyPy customers use Python 2 Well yes, your customers will generally pay for the product that actually works and is useful now, and not the experimental and incomplete one that's several versions behind.
- 1st1 11y ago
  Exactly. At this point, 7 years since python 3.0 was first released, PyPy's lack of interest towards it is starting to harm the community.
  - JulianWasTaken 11y ago
    That isn't a fair complaint to levy on the PyPy developers. We are one of those paying customers (on occasion), for instance, and there is no benefit for us for work on PyPy 3 and potential large benefit from some of the upcoming work on PyPy 2. If people see benefit from PyPy 3 they should donate to motivate work on it.
  - ergo14 11y ago
    Pay for it and there will be interest - its simple. It's not that they are against it - they just need to work on things that make the project alive.
  - fijal 11y ago
    And this sort of attitude is exactly why I hate Python 3 personally. "Work for free on Python 3 adoption or you're harming the Python community".
    - 1st1 11y ago
      > And this sort of attitude is exactly why I hate Python 3 personally. "Work for free on Python 3 adoption or you're harming the Python community". Sorry if I offended you with my comment, it wasn't my intent. I guess there is a way to view this in a different light: PyPy is a major Python implementation, that is used by a lot of people. There creates ~some~ responsibility. Also, using "hate" word is precisely the problem -- it's not a first time I hear that from PyPy devs. I just hope that you hate only that aspect of the whole "Python 3 Saga", not the language itself.
      - fijal 11y ago
        to answer just one aspect of your post - I have absolutely nothing against python 3 as a language :-)
  - geofft 11y ago
    The harm to the community was done by forking an incompatible language, fracturing it, and expecting people to spend their free time going along with it (usually in the form of writing Python 3-compatible Python 2 code, which is the worst of all possible worlds). If you're going to rewrite your code in a language that many of your users don't have installed already and several of your libraries don't yet support, there are plenty of other compelling languages to write in and fund development in.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      It's also at least possible that the Python community is in better shape with a stable 2.7 and increasingly better 3.x than it would be with a Python 2.11 that just broke abi compatibility again.

by fijal 11y ago

plorkyeran 11y ago

> All PyPy customers use Python 2 Well yes, your customers will generally pay for the product that actually works and is useful now, and not the experimental and incomplete one that's several versions behind.

1st1 11y ago
Exactly. At this point, 7 years since python 3.0 was first released, PyPy's lack of interest towards it is starting to harm the community.
- JulianWasTaken 11y ago
  That isn't a fair complaint to levy on the PyPy developers. We are one of those paying customers (on occasion), for instance, and there is no benefit for us for work on PyPy 3 and potential large benefit from some of the upcoming work on PyPy 2. If people see benefit from PyPy 3 they should donate to motivate work on it.
- ergo14 11y ago
  Pay for it and there will be interest - its simple. It's not that they are against it - they just need to work on things that make the project alive.
- fijal 11y ago
  And this sort of attitude is exactly why I hate Python 3 personally. "Work for free on Python 3 adoption or you're harming the Python community".
  - 1st1 11y ago
    > And this sort of attitude is exactly why I hate Python 3 personally. "Work for free on Python 3 adoption or you're harming the Python community". Sorry if I offended you with my comment, it wasn't my intent. I guess there is a way to view this in a different light: PyPy is a major Python implementation, that is used by a lot of people. There creates ~some~ responsibility. Also, using "hate" word is precisely the problem -- it's not a first time I hear that from PyPy devs. I just hope that you hate only that aspect of the whole "Python 3 Saga", not the language itself.
    - fijal 11y ago
      to answer just one aspect of your post - I have absolutely nothing against python 3 as a language :-)
- geofft 11y ago
  The harm to the community was done by forking an incompatible language, fracturing it, and expecting people to spend their free time going along with it (usually in the form of writing Python 3-compatible Python 2 code, which is the worst of all possible worlds). If you're going to rewrite your code in a language that many of your users don't have installed already and several of your libraries don't yet support, there are plenty of other compelling languages to write in and fund development in.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    It's also at least possible that the Python community is in better shape with a stable 2.7 and increasingly better 3.x than it would be with a Python 2.11 that just broke abi compatibility again.