6 ms·

I just have to add that this is how pages were generated server-side before XmlHttpRequest emerged. This was deliberate. Addressable and re-loadable states were

I just have to add that this is how pages were generated server-side before XmlHttpRequest emerged. This was deliberate. Addressable and re-loadable states were part of the original design by Tim Berners-Lee. The fact that we have had this whole circus with mutable state on the client side is just a joke to me. I hope that someone invents a sane client-side lib with sane page generation quite soon. Should certainly be possible. Oh and not even performance-critical stuff like video games deal with the big mess that is mutable state. If game devs redraw their stuff at 100+ FPS and haven't needed mutable state, how come that web devs fall right into that trap? Crazy.

mmarklar 11y ago
I'm no AAA game dev but I'm pretty sure games are all about mutable state. I'd love to see some examples of what you're talking about.
- strictfp 11y ago
  Sorry I should have said view state.
  - kaoD 11y ago
    The DOM is not a view. In fact it stands for Document Object Model :P I know it's confusing since it's where you create the view for your app, but the DOM is actually a model of your view (i.e. the V on your app's MVC is built manipulating the M on the browser's MVC). Why can't the web draw at 100 FPS from immutable data? Because the web renders through constraints based on the DOM, and constraints cascade, which is a problem more akin to physics in games (which are mutable for a reason) than their graphics. The bottleneck is updating such model. Also, game physics constraints are usually faster to calculate because action at a distance is unusual and there are optimizations like quad-trees. In web pages, inserting a single DOM node can trigger a huge change, making it more like simulating hydrodynamics that the common solids found in videogames.
    - strictfp 11y ago
      You bring up some interesting points. I guess you could compare the DOM to the OpenGL/DirectX scene, with some differences. I'm not entirely convinced that the graphics rendering is less complex though, considering occlusion lightning etc. My main point was really yhat re-building the entire scene is entirely possible and a lot easier to code than manipulating a stateful scene. I guess physics is stateful since the programmer only sets initial conditions and the engine moves it forward, so the final state is unknown to the programmer. Dom is a fine tool but I would like a better separation between the model and the view, which re-rendering gives you in a straightforward way. The other way is data binding, but it's considerably more involved and probably not worth it for 99% of the cases IMO.
Jare 11y ago
> If game devs redraw their stuff at 100+ FPS and haven't needed mutable state Well I wouldn't quite say that... although there was a time when "dirty rectangles" was an important feature of a graphics engine. Generally speaking, games are based on mutation of entities: to move an existing entity, we mutate their position, not recreate them in the new position.
- strictfp 11y ago
  Sorry I should have said view state. Dirty rectangles are indeed such an optimization, you are right.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  Generally speaking, games are based on mutation of entities: to move an existing entity, we mutate their position, not recreate them in the new position. Actually, games are generally an area where immutability is relatively easy to use. All of the mutation code can be isolated in one place that handles the transition to the next "tick", leaving nothing but immutables in the game logic itself. This is analogous to how ReactJS manages things through diffing.
  - Jare 11y ago
    Conceptually it's very easy: World(t+1) = Sim(World(t)) but performance in practice is going to suffer a lot compared to in-place mutation, for any simulation that has a great degree of temporal coherence. I don't know of real world examples of game developed with immutable / reactive patterns, outside of thought experiments like Carmack's (Or Tim Sweeney's), or a few simple games in Haskell, Elm, etc. But I'd love to hear of more examples. (Edit: some parts of games and game engines use this sort of "double buffer" approach for other purposes: smoothing and interpolation mostly, of visual frames in between logic ticks, or for network prediction. But in the cases I have seen or coded, most of the world state is not interpolated and not duplicated)
    - stcredzero 11y ago
      I am not yet a professional game developer, but I did write a multiplayer server in Clojure. It had most of the features of the current version, which was ported to golang: https://secure.emergencevector.com:8000/ https://secure.emergencevector.com:8000/ (Be sure to mouse click on the map, otherwise your arrow key keystrokes may never get read due to focus.) I got pretty similar performance out of Clojure's persistent collections as I got out of mutable state in a traditional game loop in golang. (Though to be honest, in neither case was that enough performance. 150 to 250 concurrent users, potentially all in the same location, interacting.)
hexasquid 11y ago
Well... I'm not expecting to do both, and get 100fps on the client while also doing all the processing serverside.
dustingetz 11y ago
> I hope that someone invents a sane client-side lib with sane page generation quite soon. Should certainly be possible. No good libraries that I know of yet but people are already doing it, at least I am: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojurescript/T6no_srtBzc/8o5DBfxh1BMJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojurescript/T6no_srtBzc/8o...
porker 11y ago
> I hope that someone invents a sane client-side lib with sane page generation quite soon. Can you explain more fully what you mean by "sane page generation" please? I am not getting your drift, apart from wondering if you want a return to 1990's static HTML pages...

mmarklar 11y ago

I'm no AAA game dev but I'm pretty sure games are all about mutable state. I'd love to see some examples of what you're talking about.

strictfp 11y ago
Sorry I should have said view state.
- kaoD 11y ago
  The DOM is not a view. In fact it stands for Document Object Model :P I know it's confusing since it's where you create the view for your app, but the DOM is actually a model of your view (i.e. the V on your app's MVC is built manipulating the M on the browser's MVC). Why can't the web draw at 100 FPS from immutable data? Because the web renders through constraints based on the DOM, and constraints cascade, which is a problem more akin to physics in games (which are mutable for a reason) than their graphics. The bottleneck is updating such model. Also, game physics constraints are usually faster to calculate because action at a distance is unusual and there are optimizations like quad-trees. In web pages, inserting a single DOM node can trigger a huge change, making it more like simulating hydrodynamics that the common solids found in videogames.
  - strictfp 11y ago
    You bring up some interesting points. I guess you could compare the DOM to the OpenGL/DirectX scene, with some differences. I'm not entirely convinced that the graphics rendering is less complex though, considering occlusion lightning etc. My main point was really yhat re-building the entire scene is entirely possible and a lot easier to code than manipulating a stateful scene. I guess physics is stateful since the programmer only sets initial conditions and the engine moves it forward, so the final state is unknown to the programmer. Dom is a fine tool but I would like a better separation between the model and the view, which re-rendering gives you in a straightforward way. The other way is data binding, but it's considerably more involved and probably not worth it for 99% of the cases IMO.

Jare 11y ago

> If game devs redraw their stuff at 100+ FPS and haven't needed mutable state Well I wouldn't quite say that... although there was a time when "dirty rectangles" was an important feature of a graphics engine. Generally speaking, games are based on mutation of entities: to move an existing entity, we mutate their position, not recreate them in the new position.

strictfp 11y ago
Sorry I should have said view state. Dirty rectangles are indeed such an optimization, you are right.
stcredzero 11y ago
Generally speaking, games are based on mutation of entities: to move an existing entity, we mutate their position, not recreate them in the new position. Actually, games are generally an area where immutability is relatively easy to use. All of the mutation code can be isolated in one place that handles the transition to the next "tick", leaving nothing but immutables in the game logic itself. This is analogous to how ReactJS manages things through diffing.
- Jare 11y ago
  Conceptually it's very easy: World(t+1) = Sim(World(t)) but performance in practice is going to suffer a lot compared to in-place mutation, for any simulation that has a great degree of temporal coherence. I don't know of real world examples of game developed with immutable / reactive patterns, outside of thought experiments like Carmack's (Or Tim Sweeney's), or a few simple games in Haskell, Elm, etc. But I'd love to hear of more examples. (Edit: some parts of games and game engines use this sort of "double buffer" approach for other purposes: smoothing and interpolation mostly, of visual frames in between logic ticks, or for network prediction. But in the cases I have seen or coded, most of the world state is not interpolated and not duplicated)
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    I am not yet a professional game developer, but I did write a multiplayer server in Clojure. It had most of the features of the current version, which was ported to golang: https://secure.emergencevector.com:8000/ https://secure.emergencevector.com:8000/ (Be sure to mouse click on the map, otherwise your arrow key keystrokes may never get read due to focus.) I got pretty similar performance out of Clojure's persistent collections as I got out of mutable state in a traditional game loop in golang. (Though to be honest, in neither case was that enough performance. 150 to 250 concurrent users, potentially all in the same location, interacting.)

hexasquid 11y ago

Well... I'm not expecting to do both, and get 100fps on the client while also doing all the processing serverside.

dustingetz 11y ago

> I hope that someone invents a sane client-side lib with sane page generation quite soon. Should certainly be possible. No good libraries that I know of yet but people are already doing it, at least I am: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojurescript/T6no_srtBzc/8o5DBfxh1BMJ https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojurescript/T6no_srtBzc/8o...

porker 11y ago

> I hope that someone invents a sane client-side lib with sane page generation quite soon. Can you explain more fully what you mean by "sane page generation" please? I am not getting your drift, apart from wondering if you want a return to 1990's static HTML pages...