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Except 10x programmers, if they exist don't just emerge fully formed into the world, they engage with some community somewhere to learn part of their skills. Th

by cmdkeen 11y ago

Except 10x programmers, if they exist don't just emerge fully formed into the world, they engage with some community somewhere to learn part of their skills. That community might be an online forum, a company, a tech meetup, university course etc. If a hypothetical black female potential 10x programmer finds the first community is unwelcoming then she is less likely to stick around and thus become a 10x programmer. There are plenty of previous articles on here from individuals who are "tech minorities" about the environment that we unconsciously create which isn't that welcoming to them. From assumptions about where and how we want to socialise, to dress codes, working hours, employee benefits etc.

thomasahle 11y ago
Is your point, that if 10x programmers exists, then it's bad, because the community that formed them was possibly unwelcoming?
yummyfajitas 11y ago
Lets distinguish two separate concepts: Unwelcoming: the community dislikes a person and behaves badly towards them. As an example, a recruiter told me not to bother with Warby Parker or Etsy since I'm not a hipster and they'll just reject me. (No idea if this is true, might just be #shitrecruiterssay.) Not my thing: a person dislikes the community, it's norms and culture, and avoids it. E.g., I don't like banking culture. You seem to be suggesting that "tech minorities" feel that tech culture is "not my thing" - we socialize and dress in a manner they dislike, work hours incompatible with their preferred lifestyle, and don't give out the right employee benefit package. As a result, "tech minorities" don't put in the effort and don't build the relationships that would help them become 10x programmers. I get the impression you consider this a problem, but it's unclear to me why that is. How you get from this to the idea that 10x programmers or programming talent are a myth is not something I could figure out from your post.
- joesmo 11y ago
  I think what he's suggesting is that minorities find our community unwelcoming, and by unwelcoming they're probably referring to the racism and sexism that's rampant in the tech community. Unlike you, they're not worried about being turned away from a job for not being a hipster, they're worried about being turned away from a job for being black or a woman. Or, worse, they're worried about the abuse and disrespect they will undoubtedly get while working in tech.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Cmdkeen explicitly refers to dress codes, benefits packages and socialization patterns, not abuse, disrespect and racism. People constantly talk about racism and sexism being "rampant", but evidence of this would be helpful. Citing statistical disparities is insufficient since, as cmdkeen notes, this could also be caused by "tech minorities" disliking the culture of tech rather than techies disliking them.
    - capitalsigma 11y ago
      In some (very loose) sense, those two things are the same thing. It's not that these people say to themselves "man, I hate how I can't wear X shirt to work, better quit" but rather "the culture here (dress code, socialization patterns, etc) seems to default to white, and people view me as an outsider." I think that that's probably much more common than explicit disrespect.
      - yummyfajitas 11y ago
        They aren't the same thing. One is something that is done to you, the other is something you choose to do to yourself (or not, if you find it more useful). My company is about 95% one race (not mine) and there is precisely 2 people here of my race (since last week) and 4 of my nationality. I simply choose not to care, and define my work tribe as "folks who care about uptime and good stats" rather than "folks who are genetically similar".
VLM 11y ago
Isn't this diametrically opposed to the prevailing opinion that 10x programmers aren't grown, they're born that way with "the knack" and burned out before age 35 at which point due to ageism they need to be in management or onto their second career? If, theoretically, 10x programmers were grown, then obviously most of the 10x programmers would be older and more experienced, but that age group is actively strongly discriminated against. Perhaps there are no 10x programmers of 50 yrs, by that age they are all 100x programmers after all that accumulated experience and domain specific knowledge, at least compared to average recent grad noobs. With the obvious exception of people with 25 yrs of experience who've only had 25 first years over and over again, although that failure mode is hardly limited to programming... With a side dish of the widely held belief that 10x programmers can only come from selection organizations like ivy unis which primarily select (don't get all wound up, I very intentionally selected the word primarily, not solely) based on kids winning the genetic lottery, not by working hard? If the only way to be a 10x is to win the genetic lotto, and if the lotto winners happen to be mostly rich white males, the problem is at the academic uni acceptance dept level and has nothing to do with programming itself. If 10x programmers can by some definition only be recent Stanford grads and Stanford refuses to admit "enough" minorities, the problem is very specifically Stanford, not programmers in general or education in general or culture in general. Ready Fire Aim isn't going to hit the right thing. Find the correct target. If an individual is "born that way" should he be made to feel unwanted or guilty about who they are? Apparently if they're gay the answer is no, and if they're a 10x programmer the answer is yes. This seems inconsistent, and inhumane. Also it assumes that programming is only learned at uni in a purely frat boy anti-minority environment yet mythology and anecdote indicates that really good programmers are all self taught before they're 18, and only go to uni to get the paper and polish off the highest end stuff. As a completely isolated theory, it is internally self consistent, but rubbed up against pretty much every other "common knowledge" of tech or geek or nerd or 10x culture, it no longer is consistent. Either everything else is wrong, or the proposed theory is wrong. Its unlikely everything is wrong (or is it?). Therefore the proposed theory is wrong.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Also it assumes that programming is only learned at uni in a purely frat boy anti-minority environment yet mythology and anecdote indicates that really good programmers are all self taught before they're 18,... This actually provides a nice concrete way to test whether non-Asian monorities/women/etc are really harmed by outside factors: compare the percentage of autodidacts among non-Asian minorities to Asians/whites. If social factors push non-Asian minorities out, then the percentage of autodidacts should be higher (since social factors are reduced by a lack of social interaction).
Mikushi 11y ago
>There are plenty of previous articles on here from individuals who are "tech minorities" about the environment that we unconsciously create which isn't that welcoming to them. From assumptions about where and how we want to socialise, to dress codes, working hours, employee benefits etc. We are welcoming if our culture suits you, like any other culture since the dawn of time. Why should we change the way we dress, the way we want to work, that we socialise, if we, that identify with the culture are perfectly happy with it. They are feeling unwelcome because they are unwilling to adapt, but it's taboo to say so. What you are advocating is purely and simply destroying a culture because some people do not like it.
- intortus 11y ago
  It's a job. Why should culture matter so much?

by cmdkeen 11y ago

thomasahle 11y ago

Is your point, that if 10x programmers exists, then it's bad, because the community that formed them was possibly unwelcoming?

yummyfajitas 11y ago

Lets distinguish two separate concepts: Unwelcoming: the community dislikes a person and behaves badly towards them. As an example, a recruiter told me not to bother with Warby Parker or Etsy since I'm not a hipster and they'll just reject me. (No idea if this is true, might just be #shitrecruiterssay.) Not my thing: a person dislikes the community, it's norms and culture, and avoids it. E.g., I don't like banking culture. You seem to be suggesting that "tech minorities" feel that tech culture is "not my thing" - we socialize and dress in a manner they dislike, work hours incompatible with their preferred lifestyle, and don't give out the right employee benefit package. As a result, "tech minorities" don't put in the effort and don't build the relationships that would help them become 10x programmers. I get the impression you consider this a problem, but it's unclear to me why that is. How you get from this to the idea that 10x programmers or programming talent are a myth is not something I could figure out from your post.

joesmo 11y ago
I think what he's suggesting is that minorities find our community unwelcoming, and by unwelcoming they're probably referring to the racism and sexism that's rampant in the tech community. Unlike you, they're not worried about being turned away from a job for not being a hipster, they're worried about being turned away from a job for being black or a woman. Or, worse, they're worried about the abuse and disrespect they will undoubtedly get while working in tech.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  Cmdkeen explicitly refers to dress codes, benefits packages and socialization patterns, not abuse, disrespect and racism. People constantly talk about racism and sexism being "rampant", but evidence of this would be helpful. Citing statistical disparities is insufficient since, as cmdkeen notes, this could also be caused by "tech minorities" disliking the culture of tech rather than techies disliking them.
  - capitalsigma 11y ago
    In some (very loose) sense, those two things are the same thing. It's not that these people say to themselves "man, I hate how I can't wear X shirt to work, better quit" but rather "the culture here (dress code, socialization patterns, etc) seems to default to white, and people view me as an outsider." I think that that's probably much more common than explicit disrespect.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      They aren't the same thing. One is something that is done to you, the other is something you choose to do to yourself (or not, if you find it more useful). My company is about 95% one race (not mine) and there is precisely 2 people here of my race (since last week) and 4 of my nationality. I simply choose not to care, and define my work tribe as "folks who care about uptime and good stats" rather than "folks who are genetically similar".

VLM 11y ago

Isn't this diametrically opposed to the prevailing opinion that 10x programmers aren't grown, they're born that way with "the knack" and burned out before age 35 at which point due to ageism they need to be in management or onto their second career? If, theoretically, 10x programmers were grown, then obviously most of the 10x programmers would be older and more experienced, but that age group is actively strongly discriminated against. Perhaps there are no 10x programmers of 50 yrs, by that age they are all 100x programmers after all that accumulated experience and domain specific knowledge, at least compared to average recent grad noobs. With the obvious exception of people with 25 yrs of experience who've only had 25 first years over and over again, although that failure mode is hardly limited to programming... With a side dish of the widely held belief that 10x programmers can only come from selection organizations like ivy unis which primarily select (don't get all wound up, I very intentionally selected the word primarily, not solely) based on kids winning the genetic lottery, not by working hard? If the only way to be a 10x is to win the genetic lotto, and if the lotto winners happen to be mostly rich white males, the problem is at the academic uni acceptance dept level and has nothing to do with programming itself. If 10x programmers can by some definition only be recent Stanford grads and Stanford refuses to admit "enough" minorities, the problem is very specifically Stanford, not programmers in general or education in general or culture in general. Ready Fire Aim isn't going to hit the right thing. Find the correct target. If an individual is "born that way" should he be made to feel unwanted or guilty about who they are? Apparently if they're gay the answer is no, and if they're a 10x programmer the answer is yes. This seems inconsistent, and inhumane. Also it assumes that programming is only learned at uni in a purely frat boy anti-minority environment yet mythology and anecdote indicates that really good programmers are all self taught before they're 18, and only go to uni to get the paper and polish off the highest end stuff. As a completely isolated theory, it is internally self consistent, but rubbed up against pretty much every other "common knowledge" of tech or geek or nerd or 10x culture, it no longer is consistent. Either everything else is wrong, or the proposed theory is wrong. Its unlikely everything is wrong (or is it?). Therefore the proposed theory is wrong.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
Also it assumes that programming is only learned at uni in a purely frat boy anti-minority environment yet mythology and anecdote indicates that really good programmers are all self taught before they're 18,... This actually provides a nice concrete way to test whether non-Asian monorities/women/etc are really harmed by outside factors: compare the percentage of autodidacts among non-Asian minorities to Asians/whites. If social factors push non-Asian minorities out, then the percentage of autodidacts should be higher (since social factors are reduced by a lack of social interaction).

Mikushi 11y ago

>There are plenty of previous articles on here from individuals who are "tech minorities" about the environment that we unconsciously create which isn't that welcoming to them. From assumptions about where and how we want to socialise, to dress codes, working hours, employee benefits etc. We are welcoming if our culture suits you, like any other culture since the dawn of time. Why should we change the way we dress, the way we want to work, that we socialise, if we, that identify with the culture are perfectly happy with it. They are feeling unwelcome because they are unwilling to adapt, but it's taboo to say so. What you are advocating is purely and simply destroying a culture because some people do not like it.

intortus 11y ago
It's a job. Why should culture matter so much?