8 ms·

In summary, They have got close a few times (reaching the finals five times in 19 years, losing in game 7 four times, ouch). The teams are not distributed to

by howeyc 11y ago

In summary, They have got close a few times (reaching the finals five times in 19 years, losing in game 7 four times, ouch). The teams are not distributed to have a more consistent fans-per-team ratio everywhere (Canada has lower population, but much much higher hockey interest, so fans-per-team is higher in Canada). Adding 2-4 teams would probably bring the fans-per-team ratio closer to USA numbers.

slantyyz 11y ago
Not just that, some teams just don't have a vested interest in winning. I mean, why try if people are going to give you money regardless of how you perform? With maybe the exception of this season, the Toronto Maple Leafs were basically guaranteed to sell out every game. The Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since 67, 3 years before I was born, and I honestly don't think it will happen again in my lifetime.
- vaadu 11y ago
  The Leafs were under-achievers last year and recently hired arguably the best coach in the league in Mike Babcock. I expect them to be in the playoffs next year and contending for the cup in the near future. The Leafs are also the the most valuable team in the NHL. http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/ http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/
  - slickwilli 11y ago
    As a Wings fan I am actually happy for you guys
  - slantyyz 11y ago
    >> contending for the cup in the near future. You can't be serious about that, can you? They usually make an expensive PR move every few years when it looks like they run the risk of fans keeping their money in their wallets, but don't often follow up with results. Granted, Pat Burns got great results in 92/93 with a team full of scrubs when he took over the Leafs (don't get me started on that non-call on Gretzky in 92 that could have sent the Leafs to the finals), we haven't seen much legitimate excitement since then. Sure, the Leafs made a couple more semi-finals with Pat Quinn, but those were with significantly better teams, so much less of an achievement in my mind. But the NHL is not the same as it was in the 90s. Everyone is bigger and faster, and the team hasn't had a legitimate superstar on the team in the way that Chicago or Pittsburgh has had for quite some time. And when they have had a superstar, that guy never had much help from the rest of the team. I don't think they've been legitimate contenders for a long, long time. The best that they've ever been is a "threat" or "dark horse". While I've managed to "check out" on the Leafs for almost a decade now, I feel especially bad for longtime fans like my Dad, who year-in, year-out get set up with trumped up expectations for the Leafs only to be let down every single time. At least he witnessed them winning a cup before I was born though. And in two years, it's going to be half a century without a cup.
    - deft 11y ago
      You must not talk to many leaf fans... They think they have a shot at the cup every single year. While I agree Mike Babcock is a great coach, he won't save them in 1 season. Typical Maple Leafs fan optimism. They never give up hope. Seems like every season MLSE finds a new way to break their fans' hearts. Perhaps they are all masochists.
      - slantyyz 11y ago
        I can't stand talking to most Leaf fans. I already hear enough of them whining all the time on the Fan (Toronto Sports Radio).
    - pitt1980 11y ago
      is there a structural reason why they can't get the talent to win? or is it simply a poor management issue?
      - slantyyz 11y ago
        >> is there a structural reason why they can't get the talent to win? There used to be - the financial goals of the Ontario Pension Plan (who owned a huge chunk of the team) ran counter to blowing huge amounts of money every year to increase the chances of winning a cup. >> or is it simply a poor management issue? Now that the pension plan is out, I think you can probably attribute the current state to a lot of bad decision making and not having a good long term plan.
        pitt1980 11y ago
        that's interesting, I wasn't familiar with the history of the Pension Plan's ownership of the team seems if the teams current woes are mostly due to poor managment, hiring the best (or at least best paid) coach is a pretty good start, especially considering that they apparently gave him an 8 year leash
        peeters 11y ago
        Hmm, the OTPP owned the Leafs starting in 2003, and there has been a salary cap since 2005. Are you saying the Leafs weren't spending at the cap from 2005 onward? Or are you saying they should have been spending more money outside of player contracts?
  - peeters 11y ago
    I don't think Shanahan nor Babcock expect to be in the playoffs next year. That's not a reasonable goal when you're one year into a complete rebuild.
- pitt1980 11y ago
  that's doesn't make much sense its not like ticket prices are fixed, even if you already sell out every game, you can always raise prices if the demand will support it not to mention all the other revenue streams that have nothing to do with how many people are in the building -------------------------------------------- I'd look more at the relative tax rates, hockey is a capped sport, Canadian teams can only pay what US teams can pay, however less of it can stay in the players pockets after taxes its appears that the expiration of the Bush tax cuts in the US leveled the field signficantly for Canadian teams (though they were in effect for a signficant portion of the time frame examined in the 538 article) http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2013/10/01/u-s-tax-changes-level-the-playing-field-for-canadian-nhl-teams/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2013/10/01/u-s-t...
  - slantyyz 11y ago
    >> that's doesn't make much sense Not sure I follow you. The Maple Leafs are one of, if not the richest team in hockey. They're rich because they've got incredibly rabid fans who will pay whether the team wins or loses, and prices generally go up in Toronto, not down. Most of my forty-some-odd-years have been "lean" years for the Leafs. For a long time, the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan owned a huge chunk of the Leafs, and there was little to no interest in spending what it took to produce a Stanley Cup winner, just some occasional lip service. Taxes might be a factor, but less so for hockey than other sports. Toronto has a lot of cachet for being one of the Original Six (one of the reasons why Babcock chose Toronto over Buffalo) and for being one of the major focal points for hockey fandom.
    - pitt1980 11y ago
      you and the original author seemed to be indicating that they didn't have incentive to win because they already made alot of money I was just saying, if they make this much money when they're not winning, there is probably even more money to be made if they actually did win (though I suppose I may have overstated that, as doing what it takes to win also costs money [though that's probably less an issue in the games current fixed player costs mode])

by howeyc 11y ago

slantyyz 11y ago

Not just that, some teams just don't have a vested interest in winning. I mean, why try if people are going to give you money regardless of how you perform? With maybe the exception of this season, the Toronto Maple Leafs were basically guaranteed to sell out every game. The Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since 67, 3 years before I was born, and I honestly don't think it will happen again in my lifetime.

vaadu 11y ago
The Leafs were under-achievers last year and recently hired arguably the best coach in the league in Mike Babcock. I expect them to be in the playoffs next year and contending for the cup in the near future. The Leafs are also the the most valuable team in the NHL. http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/ http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/
- slickwilli 11y ago
  As a Wings fan I am actually happy for you guys
- slantyyz 11y ago
  >> contending for the cup in the near future. You can't be serious about that, can you? They usually make an expensive PR move every few years when it looks like they run the risk of fans keeping their money in their wallets, but don't often follow up with results. Granted, Pat Burns got great results in 92/93 with a team full of scrubs when he took over the Leafs (don't get me started on that non-call on Gretzky in 92 that could have sent the Leafs to the finals), we haven't seen much legitimate excitement since then. Sure, the Leafs made a couple more semi-finals with Pat Quinn, but those were with significantly better teams, so much less of an achievement in my mind. But the NHL is not the same as it was in the 90s. Everyone is bigger and faster, and the team hasn't had a legitimate superstar on the team in the way that Chicago or Pittsburgh has had for quite some time. And when they have had a superstar, that guy never had much help from the rest of the team. I don't think they've been legitimate contenders for a long, long time. The best that they've ever been is a "threat" or "dark horse". While I've managed to "check out" on the Leafs for almost a decade now, I feel especially bad for longtime fans like my Dad, who year-in, year-out get set up with trumped up expectations for the Leafs only to be let down every single time. At least he witnessed them winning a cup before I was born though. And in two years, it's going to be half a century without a cup.
  - deft 11y ago
    You must not talk to many leaf fans... They think they have a shot at the cup every single year. While I agree Mike Babcock is a great coach, he won't save them in 1 season. Typical Maple Leafs fan optimism. They never give up hope. Seems like every season MLSE finds a new way to break their fans' hearts. Perhaps they are all masochists.
    - slantyyz 11y ago
      I can't stand talking to most Leaf fans. I already hear enough of them whining all the time on the Fan (Toronto Sports Radio).
  - pitt1980 11y ago
    is there a structural reason why they can't get the talent to win? or is it simply a poor management issue?
    - slantyyz 11y ago
      >> is there a structural reason why they can't get the talent to win? There used to be - the financial goals of the Ontario Pension Plan (who owned a huge chunk of the team) ran counter to blowing huge amounts of money every year to increase the chances of winning a cup. >> or is it simply a poor management issue? Now that the pension plan is out, I think you can probably attribute the current state to a lot of bad decision making and not having a good long term plan.
      - pitt1980 11y ago
        that's interesting, I wasn't familiar with the history of the Pension Plan's ownership of the team seems if the teams current woes are mostly due to poor managment, hiring the best (or at least best paid) coach is a pretty good start, especially considering that they apparently gave him an 8 year leash
      - peeters 11y ago
        Hmm, the OTPP owned the Leafs starting in 2003, and there has been a salary cap since 2005. Are you saying the Leafs weren't spending at the cap from 2005 onward? Or are you saying they should have been spending more money outside of player contracts?
- peeters 11y ago
  I don't think Shanahan nor Babcock expect to be in the playoffs next year. That's not a reasonable goal when you're one year into a complete rebuild.
pitt1980 11y ago
that's doesn't make much sense its not like ticket prices are fixed, even if you already sell out every game, you can always raise prices if the demand will support it not to mention all the other revenue streams that have nothing to do with how many people are in the building -------------------------------------------- I'd look more at the relative tax rates, hockey is a capped sport, Canadian teams can only pay what US teams can pay, however less of it can stay in the players pockets after taxes its appears that the expiration of the Bush tax cuts in the US leveled the field signficantly for Canadian teams (though they were in effect for a signficant portion of the time frame examined in the 538 article) http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2013/10/01/u-s-tax-changes-level-the-playing-field-for-canadian-nhl-teams/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2013/10/01/u-s-t...
- slantyyz 11y ago
  >> that's doesn't make much sense Not sure I follow you. The Maple Leafs are one of, if not the richest team in hockey. They're rich because they've got incredibly rabid fans who will pay whether the team wins or loses, and prices generally go up in Toronto, not down. Most of my forty-some-odd-years have been "lean" years for the Leafs. For a long time, the Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan owned a huge chunk of the Leafs, and there was little to no interest in spending what it took to produce a Stanley Cup winner, just some occasional lip service. Taxes might be a factor, but less so for hockey than other sports. Toronto has a lot of cachet for being one of the Original Six (one of the reasons why Babcock chose Toronto over Buffalo) and for being one of the major focal points for hockey fandom.
  - pitt1980 11y ago
    you and the original author seemed to be indicating that they didn't have incentive to win because they already made alot of money I was just saying, if they make this much money when they're not winning, there is probably even more money to be made if they actually did win (though I suppose I may have overstated that, as doing what it takes to win also costs money [though that's probably less an issue in the games current fixed player costs mode])