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Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. I am amazed by the unique capability of humans to take our most ingrained needs and desires and turn them into sham

by adevine 11y ago

Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. I am amazed by the unique capability of humans to take our most ingrained needs and desires and turn them into shame. Whether it be sex, or food, or "wasting time", or even just displays of emotion, we have somehow managed to turn these most central of human feelings into something bad. I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start.

javert 11y ago
> I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. As soon as you say something like this, you concede the argument. You are equating human happiness with "giving in to base urges," which couldn't be further from the truth.
- blueflow 11y ago
  People find happiness in very different things. And be more careful while using the term "truth" for something that only applies to you and other people similar to you.
  - javert 11y ago
    I meant what I said. Nobody can experience happiness by giving in to whims and random urges without considering the long term. However, the good for a human being does consist in enjoying life and experiencing good emotion. So, this was a false dichotomy: > I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. To be specific, the options are not: deny pleasure on the one hand, or give in to short-term base urges on the other hand with no thought to the consequences. That is a false dichotomy.
- adevine 11y ago
  By "base urges", I mean that quite literally, and not with a negative connotation. I mean the most fundamental of human needs: food, sex, emotional expression. I mean that we should take delight in a great meal, but not to the point that we overdose on food to the point where it's harmful and no longer pleasurable. Same thing goes for sex and emotional expression.
  - david-given 11y ago
    Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is useful to point at in this sort of conversation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
alashley 11y ago
A friend of mine said "people feel uncomfortable when they see others doing things they they themselves want to do." While like you, I don't endorse abuse of any of the good things in life, since they lose value, I think the saying "to each his own" is apt. Until the day comes, if it ever does, when people don't "shame" others for their desires, do what makes you happy.
rokhayakebe 11y ago
Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. To you, yes. However I am sure there are currently X number of capitalists who are seeing this as an opportunity. I mean who is a better person to hire than someone whose entire self worth is based on having no fun and being productive all their waking hours.
- enknamel 11y ago
  It's funny that you make that point because from the descriptions they sound like they could possibly be the only working communist society. Communism only works if you have zero imagination and zero ambition and just accept your lot in life.
  - lmm 11y ago
    It's long been observed that large firms are like communism "on the inside".
- somnicule 11y ago
  Okay, even buying into your caricature of capitalism, there are too many people making money selling entertainment for it to lead to this.
sliverstorm 11y ago
Vices are obviously destructive when over-indulged. It's not astounding that we developed cultural mores that err on the more conservative side.
chongli 11y ago
Shame is a tool we humans use to control one another. If we can trick someone into feeling ashamed of their own very existence, we can turn them into a slave.

by adevine 11y ago

javert 11y ago

> I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. As soon as you say something like this, you concede the argument. You are equating human happiness with "giving in to base urges," which couldn't be further from the truth.

blueflow 11y ago
People find happiness in very different things. And be more careful while using the term "truth" for something that only applies to you and other people similar to you.
- javert 11y ago
  I meant what I said. Nobody can experience happiness by giving in to whims and random urges without considering the long term. However, the good for a human being does consist in enjoying life and experiencing good emotion. So, this was a false dichotomy: > I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. To be specific, the options are not: deny pleasure on the one hand, or give in to short-term base urges on the other hand with no thought to the consequences. That is a false dichotomy.
adevine 11y ago
By "base urges", I mean that quite literally, and not with a negative connotation. I mean the most fundamental of human needs: food, sex, emotional expression. I mean that we should take delight in a great meal, but not to the point that we overdose on food to the point where it's harmful and no longer pleasurable. Same thing goes for sex and emotional expression.
- david-given 11y ago
  Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is useful to point at in this sort of conversation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

alashley 11y ago

A friend of mine said "people feel uncomfortable when they see others doing things they they themselves want to do." While like you, I don't endorse abuse of any of the good things in life, since they lose value, I think the saying "to each his own" is apt. Until the day comes, if it ever does, when people don't "shame" others for their desires, do what makes you happy.

rokhayakebe 11y ago

Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. To you, yes. However I am sure there are currently X number of capitalists who are seeing this as an opportunity. I mean who is a better person to hire than someone whose entire self worth is based on having no fun and being productive all their waking hours.

enknamel 11y ago
It's funny that you make that point because from the descriptions they sound like they could possibly be the only working communist society. Communism only works if you have zero imagination and zero ambition and just accept your lot in life.
- lmm 11y ago
  It's long been observed that large firms are like communism "on the inside".
somnicule 11y ago
Okay, even buying into your caricature of capitalism, there are too many people making money selling entertainment for it to lead to this.

sliverstorm 11y ago

Vices are obviously destructive when over-indulged. It's not astounding that we developed cultural mores that err on the more conservative side.

chongli 11y ago

Shame is a tool we humans use to control one another. If we can trick someone into feeling ashamed of their own very existence, we can turn them into a slave.