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Regardless of club affiliation, generally speaking it makes no sense to have women stand up for men's rights. Men need to stand up for men's rights because then

Regardless of club affiliation, generally speaking it makes no sense to have women stand up for men's rights. Men need to stand up for men's rights because then at least you can assume authenticity based on shared self-interest. In that respect, even MRA is, for men, an improvement on feminism.

DanBC 11y ago
Women stand up for men getting better access to mental health care because women are affected as mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters of men who die by suicide. That's just one example where feminism would seek to help men because it's in the interests of women. There are plenty of others, and there are more altruistic examples too.
- thsealienbstrds 11y ago
  That's true, there are many legitimate reasons for women to be standing up for men in that way. Even so, a male centered movement is bound to stand up for men's rights in a more complete way, simply because then men have their own voice.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    But they often get taken over by fucking wingnuts. Look at groups that discuss male victims of rape. This is an important subject that doesn't receive nearly enough attention - it's even acceptable to joke about male victims of rape on tv in a way that would be totally unacceptable if it were about women. But a sizable number of the groups addressing this are dominated by men who try to deny the female experience of rape (rape against women doesn't count as rape because they were drunk, or they were a friend of their rapist, or because they didn't fight, etc) or they distort sexual violence statistics to claim that more men are raped than women. Or look at groups discussing family courts. There's an unwillingness to accept that some men are abusive fathers or abusive husbands and that children or spouses need protection from those men. Family law is browen and unjust and many men are being denied their human right to a family life with their child (and ditto children their right to family lofe with father) but you need to accept one of the many reasons for that is the huge numbers of women murdered and beaten by their spouse and the large numbers of children murdered and beaten by their children.
    - thsealienbstrds 11y ago
      Sorry, I think this is not an argument for denying the existence of a by-men-for-men movement. Maybe it's current incarnation is fucked up but your argument is just fatalistic thinking. Besides, feminism is not immune to crazy people either and they do real damage too.
Mz 11y ago
I'm female. I prefer to stand for human rights. Last I checked, men are still human. FWIW, I don't generally self-identify as a feminist, though I get accused of being one quite a lot. I think anyone who claims to want a better world and is vindictively hoping that some class of people with more "privilege" gets their come-uppance is doing it wrong.
- thsealienbstrds 11y ago
  Cool, but your last sentence goes too far. There is politics to worry about. Hasn't feminism proven that a non-partisan stance (egalitarianism) is less effective politically than a partisan one? I can accuse you of the same 'vindictiveness' that feminists face when men say that feminism is wrong because it's all about women. It's not wrong, it's politics.
  - malandrew 11y ago
    I thought her last sentence was actually spot on. When people argue for egalitarianism, I actively support them. When people argue using the approach she condemned, I vehemently oppose such people because it's toxic, drives people apart (as does any type of identity politics) and breeds resentment.

DanBC 11y ago

Women stand up for men getting better access to mental health care because women are affected as mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters of men who die by suicide. That's just one example where feminism would seek to help men because it's in the interests of women. There are plenty of others, and there are more altruistic examples too.

thsealienbstrds 11y ago
That's true, there are many legitimate reasons for women to be standing up for men in that way. Even so, a male centered movement is bound to stand up for men's rights in a more complete way, simply because then men have their own voice.
- DanBC 11y ago
  But they often get taken over by fucking wingnuts. Look at groups that discuss male victims of rape. This is an important subject that doesn't receive nearly enough attention - it's even acceptable to joke about male victims of rape on tv in a way that would be totally unacceptable if it were about women. But a sizable number of the groups addressing this are dominated by men who try to deny the female experience of rape (rape against women doesn't count as rape because they were drunk, or they were a friend of their rapist, or because they didn't fight, etc) or they distort sexual violence statistics to claim that more men are raped than women. Or look at groups discussing family courts. There's an unwillingness to accept that some men are abusive fathers or abusive husbands and that children or spouses need protection from those men. Family law is browen and unjust and many men are being denied their human right to a family life with their child (and ditto children their right to family lofe with father) but you need to accept one of the many reasons for that is the huge numbers of women murdered and beaten by their spouse and the large numbers of children murdered and beaten by their children.
  - thsealienbstrds 11y ago
    Sorry, I think this is not an argument for denying the existence of a by-men-for-men movement. Maybe it's current incarnation is fucked up but your argument is just fatalistic thinking. Besides, feminism is not immune to crazy people either and they do real damage too.

Mz 11y ago

I'm female. I prefer to stand for human rights. Last I checked, men are still human. FWIW, I don't generally self-identify as a feminist, though I get accused of being one quite a lot. I think anyone who claims to want a better world and is vindictively hoping that some class of people with more "privilege" gets their come-uppance is doing it wrong.

thsealienbstrds 11y ago
Cool, but your last sentence goes too far. There is politics to worry about. Hasn't feminism proven that a non-partisan stance (egalitarianism) is less effective politically than a partisan one? I can accuse you of the same 'vindictiveness' that feminists face when men say that feminism is wrong because it's all about women. It's not wrong, it's politics.
- malandrew 11y ago
  I thought her last sentence was actually spot on. When people argue for egalitarianism, I actively support them. When people argue using the approach she condemned, I vehemently oppose such people because it's toxic, drives people apart (as does any type of identity politics) and breeds resentment.