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this! Once someone learns something -- they can put it into practice (or not if they were just learning for fun). It makes sense that in the future, rather th

this! Once someone learns something -- they can put it into practice (or not if they were just learning for fun). It makes sense that in the future, rather than a certificate, examples of putting learning into practice would become more important. It is certainly easy to show proof of practice already with smartphones, cheaper computers and great publishing tools. portfolio trumps certificate :)

nraynaud 11y ago
In some fields you just can't experiment at home (often because the capital expenditure is too high), think some chemistry, some rocket design, some metallurgy etc. You need to get a job to build your portfolio, and you need a piece of paper to get the first job.
- wolfgke 11y ago
  In chemistry rather for legal reasons.
- andyidsinga 11y ago
  This is true, but only to the extent that we're looking at the current state of moocs - which don't offer access to those kinds of equipment. When we start seeing that happen, we're back to the focus on ability to show work, experiments behind them, and the ability to describe the work in great detail to a potential employer in order to get the job. also , for new college grad jobs in chemistry, rocket design, metalurgy -- these can most certainly be done at home, or civilian grade facilities. See also Amateur Rocket Society and the kinds of things they're up to http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa.html http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa.html
  - rpcope1 11y ago
    I have some very strong doubts that a MOOC will ever be able to offer the laboratory experience that you'd get at a traditional university (I'm not talking entry level). To do a lot of the EE work I've done in the past, you really need to know what you're doing, and a lot of the equipment, like a good vector network analyzer, is both incredibly cost prohibitive (new ones can reach a quarter of a million), and really take some expert knowledge to operate effectively (i.e. someone should be there with you to ensure the you don't break the machine). MOOCs may be good for CS, and they may be good for teaching entry level knowledge, because of the way the accumulation of very expensive equipment and experience/intelligence surrounding the field, at least for the immediate engineering fields I've been exposed to. I think it's still far better (if not the only decent way) to have a faculty mentor present and have a lot more close cooperation (as atleast I did when I was in university) when learning a lot of the specialist EE knowledge I got back when I was in school. I doubt you'll ever see MOOCs progress much in this regard, nor would I want to hire an engineer who did not have some level of hands on design and lab experience described above. Also to deflect a potential counterpoint: most of the very expensive equipment will probably never be any cheaper because it isn't built in enough quantities, and for things like good RF equipment, everything needs to be carefully spec'd and machined, and the manufacturing is very time and resource intensive (you're getting your money's worth on a good spectrum analyzer or network analyzer, typically).
    - andyidsinga 11y ago
      hmm - yes I have the similar doubts about programming at the advanced "building something very complicated level" with a analogous experience in my current project with machine learning and cloud infrastructure. Totally agree about having a person present -- but moocs don't preclude that - see "inverted classroom" concepts. back to complicated high-end equipment : * there are people who have electron microscopes of their own - http://hackedgadgets.com/2013/01/01/garage-scanning-electron-microscope/ http://hackedgadgets.com/2013/01/01/garage-scanning-electron... . * usb protocol analyzers used to be 20k (if I remember correctly how much catc's were) ...and now they are available for < $100 or can be made with open source parts. Its hard to imagine ahead of time, but many exotic things come down in price and complexity when smart people come along and imagine a need for them in their garages or similar lower-end-than-original setting. fun discussion!
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      To do a lot of the EE work I've done in the past, you really need to know what you're doing, and a lot of the equipment, like a good vector network analyzer, is both incredibly cost prohibitive (new ones can reach a quarter of a million I have less than $10K in my HP8510C, thanks to eBay, but I'm also lucky that I'm not into organic chemistry or something else that would get me added to the no-fly list as soon as I tried to equip my lab. In some states like Texas, the brave, patriotic drug warriors have successfully outlawed common glassware. After all, why would you want an Erlenmeyer flask or a reflux condenser if you're not cooking meth? Eventually, I'm sure it will occur to them that I could use my VNA to optimize the radar cross-section of a homebrew drone to evade the air defenses at the White House, and that'll be the end of that hobby.
riffraff 11y ago
I took a Modern History class on coursera[0] how would I show proof of it? I also took one in macro economics, which also seems somewhat hard to show :) Some subjects are inherently less practical and/or difficult to produce evidence for. [0] which was among the best of more than a dozen classes I've taken across a few MOOCs, highly recommended! https://www.coursera.org/course/modernworld https://www.coursera.org/course/modernworld
- andyidsinga 11y ago
  Okay, good, so lets play this out a bit. You're claiming these courses, and you also claim you did well and learned something. So... Scenario 1 you're interviewing for a job: Interviewer has knowledge and experience in the area of question. They ask you "tell me about XYZ - you have taken courses on the subject? <looks at your resume>". Your answer is: * "blah blah blah blah blah ..lots of juicy details about the cool stuff you learned." * "blah blah blah, where you learned it from" * "blah blah what you did in the course" * "yada yada, here's an essay I wrote, citing sources". * "foo bar baz I got a article published in a magazine or did a talk at XYZ" * "I built this thing for XYZ ..check out these pictures" Your answer is not: * "Here's my credential in XYZ" Scenario 2 you're hanging at a local meetup for XYZ, you know, "doing the networking" Someone says "FOO in XYZ subject is cool" You say: "No doubt! I took a course on on XYZ on coursera. I did a whole section on FOO, it was sweet" You do not say : "here's my credential" Scenario 4 you're on a date You do not say : "here's my credential(s)"[1] Scenario 5 you're hanging with your significant other, having a intellectual discussion (I guess the date in #4 went well) You do not say : "blah blah blah - I have credential(s) - yada yada, I'm right"[2] [1] whatever credential(s) is a euphemism for -- you can never lead with this on a date :) :) :). [2] this never works
  - wolfgke 11y ago
    Scenario 6 you're interviewing for a job and personnel manager has hardly any knowledge about the topic (very usual). Personnel manager: "You claim that you have knowledge in [topic]. What do you have to prove this kind of knowledge? Me: "I attended course in [provider] and completed it successfully with distinction. Here's the certificate..." Scenario 7 - again job interview Personnel manager: "You claim that you very actively continue to educate yourself. What can you offer to prove you claim?" Me: "Here's a list of certificates that I earned on Coursera for the last year alone. These show my individual initiative in self-improvement in quite a range of skills that could be important for the job."
pjmlp 11y ago
> portfolio trumps certificate :) Not on my home country. If you don't have the certificate good luck going through HR.
- andyidsinga 11y ago
  good point. I've also lived in non-US countries and saw that. So question for you is - in your country is the need for the certificate increasing or decreasing?
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Increasing, it doesn't make sense to decrease, given our society. As I said, without papers certifying the knowledge one has, the application will just be tossed into the garbage can. The only way to workaround that, like every southern country in Europe, is if you know someone that knows someone.... Also for any IT related job, applicants are expected to have at least a 3 year duration degree, with preference given to those with a 5 year duration one.
    - bovermyer 11y ago
      I would love to see numbers on innovation, compensation, and quality of life of developers in the USA versus Europe. I have my suspicions on how it'd turn out, but a full exploration would be fascinating.
      - andyidsinga 11y ago
        howe do you think it would turn out?
        bovermyer 11y ago
        I suspect (based on nothing more concrete than heresay) that European developers have less stress, American developers make more money, European developers have better health care and fringe benefits, and American developers are more prone to trying something insane just to see if it works.

nraynaud 11y ago

In some fields you just can't experiment at home (often because the capital expenditure is too high), think some chemistry, some rocket design, some metallurgy etc. You need to get a job to build your portfolio, and you need a piece of paper to get the first job.

wolfgke 11y ago
In chemistry rather for legal reasons.
andyidsinga 11y ago
This is true, but only to the extent that we're looking at the current state of moocs - which don't offer access to those kinds of equipment. When we start seeing that happen, we're back to the focus on ability to show work, experiments behind them, and the ability to describe the work in great detail to a potential employer in order to get the job. also , for new college grad jobs in chemistry, rocket design, metalurgy -- these can most certainly be done at home, or civilian grade facilities. See also Amateur Rocket Society and the kinds of things they're up to http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa.html http://www.space-rockets.com/arsa.html
- rpcope1 11y ago
  I have some very strong doubts that a MOOC will ever be able to offer the laboratory experience that you'd get at a traditional university (I'm not talking entry level). To do a lot of the EE work I've done in the past, you really need to know what you're doing, and a lot of the equipment, like a good vector network analyzer, is both incredibly cost prohibitive (new ones can reach a quarter of a million), and really take some expert knowledge to operate effectively (i.e. someone should be there with you to ensure the you don't break the machine). MOOCs may be good for CS, and they may be good for teaching entry level knowledge, because of the way the accumulation of very expensive equipment and experience/intelligence surrounding the field, at least for the immediate engineering fields I've been exposed to. I think it's still far better (if not the only decent way) to have a faculty mentor present and have a lot more close cooperation (as atleast I did when I was in university) when learning a lot of the specialist EE knowledge I got back when I was in school. I doubt you'll ever see MOOCs progress much in this regard, nor would I want to hire an engineer who did not have some level of hands on design and lab experience described above. Also to deflect a potential counterpoint: most of the very expensive equipment will probably never be any cheaper because it isn't built in enough quantities, and for things like good RF equipment, everything needs to be carefully spec'd and machined, and the manufacturing is very time and resource intensive (you're getting your money's worth on a good spectrum analyzer or network analyzer, typically).
  - andyidsinga 11y ago
    hmm - yes I have the similar doubts about programming at the advanced "building something very complicated level" with a analogous experience in my current project with machine learning and cloud infrastructure. Totally agree about having a person present -- but moocs don't preclude that - see "inverted classroom" concepts. back to complicated high-end equipment : * there are people who have electron microscopes of their own - http://hackedgadgets.com/2013/01/01/garage-scanning-electron-microscope/ http://hackedgadgets.com/2013/01/01/garage-scanning-electron... . * usb protocol analyzers used to be 20k (if I remember correctly how much catc's were) ...and now they are available for < $100 or can be made with open source parts. Its hard to imagine ahead of time, but many exotic things come down in price and complexity when smart people come along and imagine a need for them in their garages or similar lower-end-than-original setting. fun discussion!
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    To do a lot of the EE work I've done in the past, you really need to know what you're doing, and a lot of the equipment, like a good vector network analyzer, is both incredibly cost prohibitive (new ones can reach a quarter of a million I have less than $10K in my HP8510C, thanks to eBay, but I'm also lucky that I'm not into organic chemistry or something else that would get me added to the no-fly list as soon as I tried to equip my lab. In some states like Texas, the brave, patriotic drug warriors have successfully outlawed common glassware. After all, why would you want an Erlenmeyer flask or a reflux condenser if you're not cooking meth? Eventually, I'm sure it will occur to them that I could use my VNA to optimize the radar cross-section of a homebrew drone to evade the air defenses at the White House, and that'll be the end of that hobby.

riffraff 11y ago

I took a Modern History class on coursera[0] how would I show proof of it? I also took one in macro economics, which also seems somewhat hard to show :) Some subjects are inherently less practical and/or difficult to produce evidence for. [0] which was among the best of more than a dozen classes I've taken across a few MOOCs, highly recommended! https://www.coursera.org/course/modernworld https://www.coursera.org/course/modernworld

andyidsinga 11y ago
Okay, good, so lets play this out a bit. You're claiming these courses, and you also claim you did well and learned something. So... Scenario 1 you're interviewing for a job: Interviewer has knowledge and experience in the area of question. They ask you "tell me about XYZ - you have taken courses on the subject? <looks at your resume>". Your answer is: * "blah blah blah blah blah ..lots of juicy details about the cool stuff you learned." * "blah blah blah, where you learned it from" * "blah blah what you did in the course" * "yada yada, here's an essay I wrote, citing sources". * "foo bar baz I got a article published in a magazine or did a talk at XYZ" * "I built this thing for XYZ ..check out these pictures" Your answer is not: * "Here's my credential in XYZ" Scenario 2 you're hanging at a local meetup for XYZ, you know, "doing the networking" Someone says "FOO in XYZ subject is cool" You say: "No doubt! I took a course on on XYZ on coursera. I did a whole section on FOO, it was sweet" You do not say : "here's my credential" Scenario 4 you're on a date You do not say : "here's my credential(s)"[1] Scenario 5 you're hanging with your significant other, having a intellectual discussion (I guess the date in #4 went well) You do not say : "blah blah blah - I have credential(s) - yada yada, I'm right"[2] [1] whatever credential(s) is a euphemism for -- you can never lead with this on a date :) :) :). [2] this never works
- wolfgke 11y ago
  Scenario 6 you're interviewing for a job and personnel manager has hardly any knowledge about the topic (very usual). Personnel manager: "You claim that you have knowledge in [topic]. What do you have to prove this kind of knowledge? Me: "I attended course in [provider] and completed it successfully with distinction. Here's the certificate..." Scenario 7 - again job interview Personnel manager: "You claim that you very actively continue to educate yourself. What can you offer to prove you claim?" Me: "Here's a list of certificates that I earned on Coursera for the last year alone. These show my individual initiative in self-improvement in quite a range of skills that could be important for the job."

pjmlp 11y ago

> portfolio trumps certificate :) Not on my home country. If you don't have the certificate good luck going through HR.

andyidsinga 11y ago
good point. I've also lived in non-US countries and saw that. So question for you is - in your country is the need for the certificate increasing or decreasing?
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Increasing, it doesn't make sense to decrease, given our society. As I said, without papers certifying the knowledge one has, the application will just be tossed into the garbage can. The only way to workaround that, like every southern country in Europe, is if you know someone that knows someone.... Also for any IT related job, applicants are expected to have at least a 3 year duration degree, with preference given to those with a 5 year duration one.
  - bovermyer 11y ago
    I would love to see numbers on innovation, compensation, and quality of life of developers in the USA versus Europe. I have my suspicions on how it'd turn out, but a full exploration would be fascinating.
    - andyidsinga 11y ago
      howe do you think it would turn out?
      - bovermyer 11y ago
        I suspect (based on nothing more concrete than heresay) that European developers have less stress, American developers make more money, European developers have better health care and fringe benefits, and American developers are more prone to trying something insane just to see if it works.