6 ms·

FBI doesnt want you to know it uses NSLs to correlate identities you use online

197 points by cinquemb 11y ago

teeray 11y ago
NSL: National Security Letter Just for the convenience of those who didn't know that acronym.
- avodonosov 11y ago
  Thank you very much!
- girvo 11y ago
  And if you're missing more context like I was, this link explains some backstory: http://www.wired.com/2010/08/nsl-gag-order-lifted/ http://www.wired.com/2010/08/nsl-gag-order-lifted/
meesterdude 11y ago
This is somewhere inbetween "duh" and "aha!". Obviously, you can foresee how this data would be available. That they request so much of it is a bit surprising, and that "anti-war" has the same meaning as "terrorist" is certainly upsetting to hear. I wonder how correlatable (totally a word) it is to identify something like a persons HN identity is, given SSL. All that data should be entirely encrypted, right? Only the URL's would be visible, so they could know you have an account. Let's not forget their suicide letter for martin luther king. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/fbis-suicide-letter-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-and-dangers-unchecked-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/fbis-suicide-letter-dr... For every one of these cases that come to light, there are certainly countless that never have/never will. This is infused in their culture and mindset; nobody that was around then is around now, but the behavior and attitude of the organization clearly lives on. They have a strong "us vs. them" ethos, like many organizations in government. They're in the trenches, fighting the good fight, the righteous fight. An extreme example, but Nazi's thought the same thing; it's an easy trap to fall into. no amount of secrecy is enough for them, because the things they do/have done would likely cause riots. When they say "for national security" that's really what they mean - people would be SO upset if they heard everything, that the blowback could be disastrous both as a country as well as for the individuals responsible. But, people do mean well. At least most. People are easily lead astray, and can do things at the beheast of sociopaths, criminals who have wiggled their way into power, or simply from organizational inertia (see: police brutality). It's easy to be angry about this stuff, and maybe you should be. But most don't need punishment, just to be shown a better way. Bonus: airplanes! http://www.startribune.com/nighttime-flight-circles-low-over-twin-cities-for-hours/305398901/ http://www.startribune.com/nighttime-flight-circles-low-over...
- drjesusphd 11y ago
  > When they say "for national security" that's really what they mean - people would be SO upset if they heard everything, that the blowback could be disastrous both as a country as well as for the individuals responsible. Bingo. I also think they showed their hands when they uttered this gem in Jewel VS NSA, wherein the government argues in a way protecting the interests of Verizon, et al. > AND WE SET THIS FORTH, AGAIN, FOR THIS COURT IN OUR MOST RECENT FILING IN WHICH THE DNI ASSERTED THE STATES SECRET PRIVILEGE AND EXPLAINED TO THE COURT THAT NOTWITHSTANDING ALL THESE TERRIBLE DISCLOSURES THAT OCCURRED OVER THE PAST YEAR -- IN FACT, THIS IS THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY -- DISCLOSURES THAT WE ARE CONVINCED THAT HAVE SERIOUSLY HARMED THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THIS COMPANY "National security of this company", eh? That sentence doesn't make the slightest bit of sense unless it's taken for granted that "National Security" means "the financial health of Verizon".
  - derefr 11y ago
    > "National Security" means "the financial health of Verizon" I think there's a chain of reasoning by which that can make sense, and which doesn't include cronyism: 1. National Security is dependent upon the "health" of the economy of the country; 2. therefore, any corporation providing a large-enough part of a nation's GDP is effectively part of its war engine just as surely as if it were producing bullets or tanks or MREs; 3. therefore, an attack on any company of that scale is an attack on the country's economy, and thus an attack on that country. It's scary how easily this chain of reasoning comes to mind, and how few objections I can think of to it.
    - rodgerd 11y ago
      It's an application of the Rice doctrine, which ties US economic supremecy into other aspects of international US dominance.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Does Verizon operate outside the US as well? If so, they probably meant "the finanancial security of this company in this nation"
marincounty 11y ago
Note to Google mail; some of us share our devises with friends, and family. Some of us do not have enough disposable income to buy separate devises. Please don't assume every email address tied to a specific devise--IP, is a single user who has multiple email accounts. On a larger note, don't assume anything about your customers. In my world, we became customers--the day you started collecting my ip data, and forcing us to view ads. Thanks!
ck2 11y ago
FBI has access to all your email older than six months without a warrant. So if you use online email like gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. it already knows who you are. People forget about the massive abuse of that law which is far older than the patriot act.

197 points by cinquemb 11y ago

teeray 11y ago

NSL: National Security Letter Just for the convenience of those who didn't know that acronym.

avodonosov 11y ago
Thank you very much!
girvo 11y ago
And if you're missing more context like I was, this link explains some backstory: http://www.wired.com/2010/08/nsl-gag-order-lifted/ http://www.wired.com/2010/08/nsl-gag-order-lifted/

meesterdude 11y ago

This is somewhere inbetween "duh" and "aha!". Obviously, you can foresee how this data would be available. That they request so much of it is a bit surprising, and that "anti-war" has the same meaning as "terrorist" is certainly upsetting to hear. I wonder how correlatable (totally a word) it is to identify something like a persons HN identity is, given SSL. All that data should be entirely encrypted, right? Only the URL's would be visible, so they could know you have an account. Let's not forget their suicide letter for martin luther king. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/fbis-suicide-letter-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-and-dangers-unchecked-surveillance https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/fbis-suicide-letter-dr... For every one of these cases that come to light, there are certainly countless that never have/never will. This is infused in their culture and mindset; nobody that was around then is around now, but the behavior and attitude of the organization clearly lives on. They have a strong "us vs. them" ethos, like many organizations in government. They're in the trenches, fighting the good fight, the righteous fight. An extreme example, but Nazi's thought the same thing; it's an easy trap to fall into. no amount of secrecy is enough for them, because the things they do/have done would likely cause riots. When they say "for national security" that's really what they mean - people would be SO upset if they heard everything, that the blowback could be disastrous both as a country as well as for the individuals responsible. But, people do mean well. At least most. People are easily lead astray, and can do things at the beheast of sociopaths, criminals who have wiggled their way into power, or simply from organizational inertia (see: police brutality). It's easy to be angry about this stuff, and maybe you should be. But most don't need punishment, just to be shown a better way. Bonus: airplanes! http://www.startribune.com/nighttime-flight-circles-low-over-twin-cities-for-hours/305398901/ http://www.startribune.com/nighttime-flight-circles-low-over...

drjesusphd 11y ago
> When they say "for national security" that's really what they mean - people would be SO upset if they heard everything, that the blowback could be disastrous both as a country as well as for the individuals responsible. Bingo. I also think they showed their hands when they uttered this gem in Jewel VS NSA, wherein the government argues in a way protecting the interests of Verizon, et al. > AND WE SET THIS FORTH, AGAIN, FOR THIS COURT IN OUR MOST RECENT FILING IN WHICH THE DNI ASSERTED THE STATES SECRET PRIVILEGE AND EXPLAINED TO THE COURT THAT NOTWITHSTANDING ALL THESE TERRIBLE DISCLOSURES THAT OCCURRED OVER THE PAST YEAR -- IN FACT, THIS IS THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY -- DISCLOSURES THAT WE ARE CONVINCED THAT HAVE SERIOUSLY HARMED THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THIS COMPANY "National security of this company", eh? That sentence doesn't make the slightest bit of sense unless it's taken for granted that "National Security" means "the financial health of Verizon".
- derefr 11y ago
  > "National Security" means "the financial health of Verizon" I think there's a chain of reasoning by which that can make sense, and which doesn't include cronyism: 1. National Security is dependent upon the "health" of the economy of the country; 2. therefore, any corporation providing a large-enough part of a nation's GDP is effectively part of its war engine just as surely as if it were producing bullets or tanks or MREs; 3. therefore, an attack on any company of that scale is an attack on the country's economy, and thus an attack on that country. It's scary how easily this chain of reasoning comes to mind, and how few objections I can think of to it.
  - rodgerd 11y ago
    It's an application of the Rice doctrine, which ties US economic supremecy into other aspects of international US dominance.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Does Verizon operate outside the US as well? If so, they probably meant "the finanancial security of this company in this nation"

marincounty 11y ago

Note to Google mail; some of us share our devises with friends, and family. Some of us do not have enough disposable income to buy separate devises. Please don't assume every email address tied to a specific devise--IP, is a single user who has multiple email accounts. On a larger note, don't assume anything about your customers. In my world, we became customers--the day you started collecting my ip data, and forcing us to view ads. Thanks!

ck2 11y ago

FBI has access to all your email older than six months without a warrant. So if you use online email like gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. it already knows who you are. People forget about the massive abuse of that law which is far older than the patriot act.