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It's a good idea for Americans to get elements from the article, but it's impossible to completely emulate it. Norway has a smaller and more homogeneous popula

by dataker 11y ago

It's a good idea for Americans to get elements from the article, but it's impossible to completely emulate it. Norway has a smaller and more homogeneous population, making these programs easier to be managed and funded.

arethuza 11y ago
Aren't most prisoners in the US in State, rather than Federal, prisons? Norway has a larger population than a lot of US States.
heidar 11y ago
What does population size have to do with it? Population density in the US and Norway is similar I think. I can imagine a homogeneous population resulting in a lower crime rate although I have no data to back that up. I think a low crime rate makes it possible to have higher quality programs like this.
- shin_lao 11y ago
  You have threshold effects. Assuming equivalent distribution, the higher the amount of people, the higher the amount of extremely difficult cases.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Sure, the US is going to have more very difficult cases because it has more people. Let's skim those very difficult cases off for the moment: why can't the US make better use of concepts like restorative justice and rehabilitation for the rest of the criminal justice population? It's cheaper; it's more effective to reduce crime; it's better for the children involved; etc etc etc.
  - ceejayoz 11y ago
    > Assuming equivalent distribution, the higher the amount of people, the higher the amount of extremely difficult cases. So divide the jurisdictions to where they're manageable. We already do this - each state runs their system independently, just as each EU member state does instead of having a single European prison system.
    - shin_lao 11y ago
      People can travel.
- dataker 11y ago
  The larger the population, the more inmates(in total number) there will be. Therefore, its organizational structure becomes harder to manage and prone to bureaucracy.
  - masklinn 11y ago
    The more inmates in total numbers yes, but the US have almost 10 times the number of inmates per capita Norway does. The state with the lowest incarceration rate still has double Norway's incarceration rate (Maine, 148; 25% the population of Norway and a similar density).
  - vidarh 11y ago
    So subdivide it in nice manageable chunks and manage them separately. This argument of scale comes up time and time again in these type of discussions despite being totally invalid in most cases: In most instances that are up for discussion it is not necessary to build one single large system.
lars 11y ago
Norway's prison population is not more homogeneous though, 34% of people in Norwegians prisons aren't even Norwegian citizens. In US prisons the number of foreigners is at < 3%.
vidarh 11y ago
This line of thinking never ceases to amaze me. The US consists of 50 states, a substantial majority of which have fewer people than Norway. In other words there already is a convenient delineation to use for separate systems; and there already are state-level penal systems. For the handful of states where the population is more than twice as big or so, there are easy regional separations you could make. These kind of problems are easy to scale because they partition trivially if there are aspects of the system that does not benefit from scale. Now you also make the argument it makes it easier to fund these programs in a smaller more homogeneous population. If you mean that getting political agreement to funding is easier, that may be a point. But then the problem is not emulating it, but lack of will to emulate it.
- techdragon 11y ago
  State legislature is unlikely to go "soft on crime". Just look at how Pot legislation always comes from citizen driven campaigns and not from the elected officials. They acquiesce when the population demands change but enact none on their own.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- andreyf 11y ago
  Could it be a prisoner's dilemma of sorts between states? If one state introduces prisons along the lines of those described in the article, then criminals will flock to that state because it'll be known as the one that has nice prisons.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    If criminals picked jurisdictions based on criminal justice systems, presumably there would have been pretty much no crime in places like Maricopa County, Arizona under "Sherrif Joe", but as it happens criminals rarely appear to weigh the impact of getting caught very much.
    - andreyf 11y ago
pavlov 11y ago
American apologism comes in two contradictory flavors: -- "It's so big!" -- "What can we do, the states decide for themselves!" It often seems like the same people are able to hold either view depending on the question. If, say, Minnesota wanted to have a prison system like Norway's, what's stopping them?
- tokenadult 11y ago
  If, say, Minnesota wanted to have a prison system like Norway's, what's stopping them? You are correct that states in the United States differ from one another in how they set up their prison systems. (Two other facts, in relation to other comments in this thread, are 1) most prisoners in the United States are in state prisons rather than federal prisons, and 2) most prisoners in the United States are in prison for offenses other than drug offenses.) I live in Minnesota. Minnesota actually does emulate Norway more than it emulates many other states of the United States. It has a lower incarceration rate than most states, and it has a higher level of public spending per inmate than most states, with single-bunk cells being the aspiration (and, for a while, the reality) to a much greater degree than in most state prison systems. I once had occasion to tour Minnesota's maximum-security prison at Oak Park Heights[1] as an interpreter for a human-rights lawyer from another country. The lawyer, who knew the prisons in his country very well, was amazed at how clean and spacious the Minnesota prison was. He asked, in complete seriousness, "Wouldn't some people commit crimes just be put in a place like this?" A guard answered, with an equal degree of seriousness, "I wouldn't want to be an inmate here." Being in prison is denial of freedom. That's enough to count as punishment for most freedom-loving people. [1] http://www.doc.state.mn.us/pages/index.php/facilities/adult-facilities/oak-park-heights/ http://www.doc.state.mn.us/pages/index.php/facilities/adult-...

by dataker 11y ago

arethuza 11y ago

Aren't most prisoners in the US in State, rather than Federal, prisons? Norway has a larger population than a lot of US States.

heidar 11y ago

What does population size have to do with it? Population density in the US and Norway is similar I think. I can imagine a homogeneous population resulting in a lower crime rate although I have no data to back that up. I think a low crime rate makes it possible to have higher quality programs like this.

shin_lao 11y ago
You have threshold effects. Assuming equivalent distribution, the higher the amount of people, the higher the amount of extremely difficult cases.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Sure, the US is going to have more very difficult cases because it has more people. Let's skim those very difficult cases off for the moment: why can't the US make better use of concepts like restorative justice and rehabilitation for the rest of the criminal justice population? It's cheaper; it's more effective to reduce crime; it's better for the children involved; etc etc etc.
- ceejayoz 11y ago
  > Assuming equivalent distribution, the higher the amount of people, the higher the amount of extremely difficult cases. So divide the jurisdictions to where they're manageable. We already do this - each state runs their system independently, just as each EU member state does instead of having a single European prison system.
  - shin_lao 11y ago
    People can travel.
dataker 11y ago
The larger the population, the more inmates(in total number) there will be. Therefore, its organizational structure becomes harder to manage and prone to bureaucracy.
- masklinn 11y ago
  The more inmates in total numbers yes, but the US have almost 10 times the number of inmates per capita Norway does. The state with the lowest incarceration rate still has double Norway's incarceration rate (Maine, 148; 25% the population of Norway and a similar density).
- vidarh 11y ago
  So subdivide it in nice manageable chunks and manage them separately. This argument of scale comes up time and time again in these type of discussions despite being totally invalid in most cases: In most instances that are up for discussion it is not necessary to build one single large system.

lars 11y ago

Norway's prison population is not more homogeneous though, 34% of people in Norwegians prisons aren't even Norwegian citizens. In US prisons the number of foreigners is at < 3%.

vidarh 11y ago

This line of thinking never ceases to amaze me. The US consists of 50 states, a substantial majority of which have fewer people than Norway. In other words there already is a convenient delineation to use for separate systems; and there already are state-level penal systems. For the handful of states where the population is more than twice as big or so, there are easy regional separations you could make. These kind of problems are easy to scale because they partition trivially if there are aspects of the system that does not benefit from scale. Now you also make the argument it makes it easier to fund these programs in a smaller more homogeneous population. If you mean that getting political agreement to funding is easier, that may be a point. But then the problem is not emulating it, but lack of will to emulate it.

techdragon 11y ago
State legislature is unlikely to go "soft on crime". Just look at how Pot legislation always comes from citizen driven campaigns and not from the elected officials. They acquiesce when the population demands change but enact none on their own.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
andreyf 11y ago
Could it be a prisoner's dilemma of sorts between states? If one state introduces prisons along the lines of those described in the article, then criminals will flock to that state because it'll be known as the one that has nice prisons.
- vidarh 11y ago
  If criminals picked jurisdictions based on criminal justice systems, presumably there would have been pretty much no crime in places like Maricopa County, Arizona under "Sherrif Joe", but as it happens criminals rarely appear to weigh the impact of getting caught very much.
  - andreyf 11y ago

pavlov 11y ago

American apologism comes in two contradictory flavors: -- "It's so big!" -- "What can we do, the states decide for themselves!" It often seems like the same people are able to hold either view depending on the question. If, say, Minnesota wanted to have a prison system like Norway's, what's stopping them?

tokenadult 11y ago
If, say, Minnesota wanted to have a prison system like Norway's, what's stopping them? You are correct that states in the United States differ from one another in how they set up their prison systems. (Two other facts, in relation to other comments in this thread, are 1) most prisoners in the United States are in state prisons rather than federal prisons, and 2) most prisoners in the United States are in prison for offenses other than drug offenses.) I live in Minnesota. Minnesota actually does emulate Norway more than it emulates many other states of the United States. It has a lower incarceration rate than most states, and it has a higher level of public spending per inmate than most states, with single-bunk cells being the aspiration (and, for a while, the reality) to a much greater degree than in most state prison systems. I once had occasion to tour Minnesota's maximum-security prison at Oak Park Heights[1] as an interpreter for a human-rights lawyer from another country. The lawyer, who knew the prisons in his country very well, was amazed at how clean and spacious the Minnesota prison was. He asked, in complete seriousness, "Wouldn't some people commit crimes just be put in a place like this?" A guard answered, with an equal degree of seriousness, "I wouldn't want to be an inmate here." Being in prison is denial of freedom. That's enough to count as punishment for most freedom-loving people. [1] http://www.doc.state.mn.us/pages/index.php/facilities/adult-facilities/oak-park-heights/ http://www.doc.state.mn.us/pages/index.php/facilities/adult-...