3 ms·

Language barrier may be the single most important obstacle for further integration. English fluency is growing too slowly due to political reasons, so universal

by vdaniuk 11y ago

Language barrier may be the single most important obstacle for further integration. English fluency is growing too slowly due to political reasons, so universal translators may be the one technology EU needs to become and act as a single entity.

jacquesm 11y ago
I've lived for > 1 year at the time in quite a few countries of Europe. Europe is not a single entity and never will be. The language is a part of this, but the mentality from country to country is a far larger component. Within Europe you have cultures and mentalities as diverse as you can imagine. Language is the least of the problem. This is also why many well-meaning individuals, NGO's, governments and other institutions that try to apply knowledge about something that 'worked' in one EU country to another invariably fail. Comparing Greece to Sweden, The UK to Romania, Serbia to Portugal, Italy to Scotland, Poland to France and Spain to Germany can shed some light on what makes - and keeps - Europe as fragmented as it is. The Euro, with all its faults, has done more for European unification than any other measure, Schengen being a close second. Now we're looking at a slow but sure decline in that feeling. Most people have an identity rooted in some rough geographical location, I've yet to hear someone call themselves a European first.
- igravious 11y ago
  Exactly. € and Schengen erase currency and national boundaries. They rock! Whenever I travel to a country within the EU that is not in the €-zone I cringe. While cultures and mentalities _do_ indeed vary quite a lot let that be seen as a _good_ and healthy thing. I consider myself European first, British Islander second. Have to figure out what other boundaries can be erased while at the same time respecting difference. More integration and yet more federation at the same time. The EU could pour money into pre-third level foreign language learning and into machine translation projects? That'd be cool.
- vitobcn 11y ago
  > "Europe is not a single entity and never will be." Having lived in several European countries myself (Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands, Switzerland) I can only agree with the first part of the statement. It is not like California and Kansas are very similar either, yet they are part of the same country. To me the current issue is not the people but politics, and the desire of sovereign countries not to relinquish power to a supranational entity. This is a process that takes time (and typically requires a catalyzer). Whether the union will succeed or not, time will tell, but in the last 15 years Europe has clearly been converging (Schengen and currency being important aspects, to which I would add Erasmus programs and low-cost flights). It is not there yet, and with the financial crisis from the last few years, the situation is more difficult at the moment; however, in my opinion if Europe wants to play a relevant geopolitical role vs the US, China, Russia, etc. it will be forced to step up its union efforts.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    New York, Kansas and California have more in common from the point of view of the citizens than the countries that you've lived in. You only need to look at how the EU elections are managed versus how the elections for the US Presidency and congress are seen by the US citizens. The sovereign 'countries' are imaginary constructs made real by physical, cultural and psychological factors, 'power' is such a psychological factor and I think it is far less of an item absent 'nationalism' and we're seeing a very strong resurgence of this in Europe right now. There isn't a country that does not have a far-right or far-left ultra nationalist political party that manages to get a substantial part of the vote. If anything happened at all during the last decade then it is that Europe's window for unity is slowly closing and that in some parts we're already regressing. This gets expressed in an 'us versus them' mentality not seen since the 80's, the latest nice example of that is Germany deciding to start levying toll on foreigners for the use of the German roads. (Which given the location of Germany is for many people the equivalent of an in-escapable tax.) So if you feel the Union is converging then that's great, I'm seeing the opposite, more and more nationalist sentiments, Greece possibly departing the Euro and maybe even departing the EU, the UK and possibly others no longer being a part of the union and more and more limitations placed on the original 'free travel of goods and people' mandate that enabled a lot of the EU to get closer. So, no, it's not there yet and the way things are going we're not ever going to get there either. The EU did a number of things very wrong, they tried to force the issue on a number of occasions and in fact succeeded in several of those but while they won those particular battles they lost the war in that the 'locals' are not Europe minded because they see downsides to it as well. And that's fine, but ramming unification down their throats definitely is one of the reasons all these backlashes found ground to sprout in and take hold. Wilders, Le-Pen, the UK euro-skeptics, Greek nationalists and so on all have one thing in common: they use the anti-EU sentiment as their main driving force (and in the case of Wilders, also anti-Islam, but then again, he's simply a nutcase that has found some fear buttons that he can push, like all the other demagogues in history, which doesn't make him any less dangerous).
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  >Within Europe you have cultures and mentalities as diverse as you can imagine. Isn't it the same with US? >... try to apply knowledge about something that 'worked' in one EU country to another invariably fail. Have any source for that information? > I've yet to hear someone call themselves a European first. Well, your anecdotal evidence matches the study data[0]. Only three percent of EU citizens identify as "european first". However more people identify as "nationality and European" than "only my nationalty". >Language is the least of the problem. Common language for 90+ of citizens would go a long way to establish common culture. >Europe is not a single entity and never will be. We'll see :) [0]http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/European-Identity011.png http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Euro...
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > Isn't it the same with US? After trekking through the US and being in 40+ states in total I'd say there are significant local variations but even the furthest extremes do not come close to what you'll encounter on a few hundred kilometer drive through the EU. > Have any source for that information? Yes. For instance the (well intentioned) attempts of the EU to manage public works and utility programs in countries that look like they could use a hand with these. > Common language for 90+ of citizens would go a long way to establish common culture. You mean like Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, Scotland and the United States have a common culture?

by vdaniuk 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

I've lived for > 1 year at the time in quite a few countries of Europe. Europe is not a single entity and never will be. The language is a part of this, but the mentality from country to country is a far larger component. Within Europe you have cultures and mentalities as diverse as you can imagine. Language is the least of the problem. This is also why many well-meaning individuals, NGO's, governments and other institutions that try to apply knowledge about something that 'worked' in one EU country to another invariably fail. Comparing Greece to Sweden, The UK to Romania, Serbia to Portugal, Italy to Scotland, Poland to France and Spain to Germany can shed some light on what makes - and keeps - Europe as fragmented as it is. The Euro, with all its faults, has done more for European unification than any other measure, Schengen being a close second. Now we're looking at a slow but sure decline in that feeling. Most people have an identity rooted in some rough geographical location, I've yet to hear someone call themselves a European first.

igravious 11y ago
Exactly. € and Schengen erase currency and national boundaries. They rock! Whenever I travel to a country within the EU that is not in the €-zone I cringe. While cultures and mentalities _do_ indeed vary quite a lot let that be seen as a _good_ and healthy thing. I consider myself European first, British Islander second. Have to figure out what other boundaries can be erased while at the same time respecting difference. More integration and yet more federation at the same time. The EU could pour money into pre-third level foreign language learning and into machine translation projects? That'd be cool.
vitobcn 11y ago
> "Europe is not a single entity and never will be." Having lived in several European countries myself (Spain, Germany, France, Netherlands, Switzerland) I can only agree with the first part of the statement. It is not like California and Kansas are very similar either, yet they are part of the same country. To me the current issue is not the people but politics, and the desire of sovereign countries not to relinquish power to a supranational entity. This is a process that takes time (and typically requires a catalyzer). Whether the union will succeed or not, time will tell, but in the last 15 years Europe has clearly been converging (Schengen and currency being important aspects, to which I would add Erasmus programs and low-cost flights). It is not there yet, and with the financial crisis from the last few years, the situation is more difficult at the moment; however, in my opinion if Europe wants to play a relevant geopolitical role vs the US, China, Russia, etc. it will be forced to step up its union efforts.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  New York, Kansas and California have more in common from the point of view of the citizens than the countries that you've lived in. You only need to look at how the EU elections are managed versus how the elections for the US Presidency and congress are seen by the US citizens. The sovereign 'countries' are imaginary constructs made real by physical, cultural and psychological factors, 'power' is such a psychological factor and I think it is far less of an item absent 'nationalism' and we're seeing a very strong resurgence of this in Europe right now. There isn't a country that does not have a far-right or far-left ultra nationalist political party that manages to get a substantial part of the vote. If anything happened at all during the last decade then it is that Europe's window for unity is slowly closing and that in some parts we're already regressing. This gets expressed in an 'us versus them' mentality not seen since the 80's, the latest nice example of that is Germany deciding to start levying toll on foreigners for the use of the German roads. (Which given the location of Germany is for many people the equivalent of an in-escapable tax.) So if you feel the Union is converging then that's great, I'm seeing the opposite, more and more nationalist sentiments, Greece possibly departing the Euro and maybe even departing the EU, the UK and possibly others no longer being a part of the union and more and more limitations placed on the original 'free travel of goods and people' mandate that enabled a lot of the EU to get closer. So, no, it's not there yet and the way things are going we're not ever going to get there either. The EU did a number of things very wrong, they tried to force the issue on a number of occasions and in fact succeeded in several of those but while they won those particular battles they lost the war in that the 'locals' are not Europe minded because they see downsides to it as well. And that's fine, but ramming unification down their throats definitely is one of the reasons all these backlashes found ground to sprout in and take hold. Wilders, Le-Pen, the UK euro-skeptics, Greek nationalists and so on all have one thing in common: they use the anti-EU sentiment as their main driving force (and in the case of Wilders, also anti-Islam, but then again, he's simply a nutcase that has found some fear buttons that he can push, like all the other demagogues in history, which doesn't make him any less dangerous).
vdaniuk 11y ago
>Within Europe you have cultures and mentalities as diverse as you can imagine. Isn't it the same with US? >... try to apply knowledge about something that 'worked' in one EU country to another invariably fail. Have any source for that information? > I've yet to hear someone call themselves a European first. Well, your anecdotal evidence matches the study data[0]. Only three percent of EU citizens identify as "european first". However more people identify as "nationality and European" than "only my nationalty". >Language is the least of the problem. Common language for 90+ of citizens would go a long way to establish common culture. >Europe is not a single entity and never will be. We'll see :) [0]http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/European-Identity011.png http://www.debatingeurope.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Euro...
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > Isn't it the same with US? After trekking through the US and being in 40+ states in total I'd say there are significant local variations but even the furthest extremes do not come close to what you'll encounter on a few hundred kilometer drive through the EU. > Have any source for that information? Yes. For instance the (well intentioned) attempts of the EU to manage public works and utility programs in countries that look like they could use a hand with these. > Common language for 90+ of citizens would go a long way to establish common culture. You mean like Canada, Australia, England, Ireland, Scotland and the United States have a common culture?