5 ms·

What is any dialect or derived language but a set of consistent mistakes with respect to the ancestor language? A dialect that lacks prestige is no less a dial

by _pius 17y ago

What is any dialect or derived language but a set of consistent mistakes with respect to the ancestor language? A dialect that lacks prestige is no less a dialect for it — that was one of the points of the article.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
mattmaroon 17y ago
I was trying to point out that that is a bad way of framing it. To call it a dialect may be technically correct, if you're merely arguing semantics. However to accept it as a legitimate dialect is another thing. If your child spoke that way you would constantly correct them, for their own good. It'd be much better for all involved to redefine "dialect" to not include something that devolved from another language via mistakes made by dumb rednecks who can't understand the concept of a double negative. If we call that a dialect, then the very word "dialect" is broken.
- _pius 17y ago
  If we call that a dialect, then the very word "dialect" is broken. Then, I suppose, the word dialect is broken. :) There's a long history of vernacular dialects lacking prestige and casting aspersions on their speakers. Shakespeare, notably, wrote his plays in the vernacular to connect with his audiences. [1] Chaucer did the same with Canterbury Tales. [2] Of course we forget that now because we revere those authors as purveyors of great literature. To call it a dialect may be technically correct, if you're merely arguing semantics. However to accept it as a legitimate dialect is another thing. If your child spoke that way you would constantly correct them, for their own good. Matt, I'm a young, intelligent, black male in America: I would never let my kids grow up speaking AAVE exclusively. Trust me. But neither I nor the author are arguing the prestige of the dialect. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_influence#The_changing_status_of_the_English_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_influence#The_c... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular_literature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular_literature
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    Another thing just occurred to me. Her article is titled "African American Vernacular English is not Standard English with Mistakes". She seems to spend the whole article making the semantic argument that it is instead a dialect. Are the two mutually exclusive? Can one dialect not be simply another with mistakes?
    - _pius 17y ago
      Her article is titled "African American Vernacular English is not Standard English with Mistakes". She seems to spend the whole article making the semantic argument that it is instead a dialect. I don't think this is a meaningless distinction. If you believe the author, speakers of AAVE are speaking a dialect of English that has lower prestige than Standard American English. If you don't, you think that on a daily basis they simply screw up the task of speaking Standard American English. This is a subtle but non-trivial difference: one point of view is about culture while the other is fundamentally about intelligence. Because many people hold the latter view, I was taught by my parents to avoid speaking AAVE. For similar reasons, I was taught to avoid Pittsburghese[1] even though I grew up with it in school. Are the two mutually exclusive? Can one dialect not be simply another with mistakes? I think it comes down to my earlier question: What is any dialect or derived language but a set of consistent mistakes with respect to the ancestor language? More to the point, either all dialects have mistakes or none do. The only difference I can see is the prestige involved. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English
      - mattmaroon 17y ago
        Well, I wouldn't say the current speakers of AAVE are literally trying to speak English properly and making a mistake. I would say that the people who created it were. And I would say that the people who speak it now suffer for it just as if they were. Thus for all intents and purposes, it is English with mistakes, even if technically it is a dialect. So I guess her argument that mistakes + tradition = dialect seems silly to me. Even if its true by the dictionary definition of "dialect" it's a harmful viewpoint to take.
- jfarmer 17y ago
  It's not ludicrous, and you're being ignorant. Additionally, using words like "legitimate" and "devolved" illustrate perfectly the concept of high-prestige versus low-prestige language dialects. People don't speak AAVE because they're lazy or dumb. They speak AAVE because they grew up where everyone else speaks AAVE. If the South had won the Civil War you might not think using double negatives, double modals, etc. were a sign of stupidity -- AAVE and Southern (white) English share many common syntactic and morphological features.

by _pius 17y ago

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

mattmaroon 17y ago

I was trying to point out that that is a bad way of framing it. To call it a dialect may be technically correct, if you're merely arguing semantics. However to accept it as a legitimate dialect is another thing. If your child spoke that way you would constantly correct them, for their own good. It'd be much better for all involved to redefine "dialect" to not include something that devolved from another language via mistakes made by dumb rednecks who can't understand the concept of a double negative. If we call that a dialect, then the very word "dialect" is broken.

_pius 17y ago
If we call that a dialect, then the very word "dialect" is broken. Then, I suppose, the word dialect is broken. :) There's a long history of vernacular dialects lacking prestige and casting aspersions on their speakers. Shakespeare, notably, wrote his plays in the vernacular to connect with his audiences. [1] Chaucer did the same with Canterbury Tales. [2] Of course we forget that now because we revere those authors as purveyors of great literature. To call it a dialect may be technically correct, if you're merely arguing semantics. However to accept it as a legitimate dialect is another thing. If your child spoke that way you would constantly correct them, for their own good. Matt, I'm a young, intelligent, black male in America: I would never let my kids grow up speaking AAVE exclusively. Trust me. But neither I nor the author are arguing the prestige of the dialect. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_influence#The_changing_status_of_the_English_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakespeare%27s_influence#The_c... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular_literature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular_literature
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Another thing just occurred to me. Her article is titled "African American Vernacular English is not Standard English with Mistakes". She seems to spend the whole article making the semantic argument that it is instead a dialect. Are the two mutually exclusive? Can one dialect not be simply another with mistakes?
  - _pius 17y ago
    Her article is titled "African American Vernacular English is not Standard English with Mistakes". She seems to spend the whole article making the semantic argument that it is instead a dialect. I don't think this is a meaningless distinction. If you believe the author, speakers of AAVE are speaking a dialect of English that has lower prestige than Standard American English. If you don't, you think that on a daily basis they simply screw up the task of speaking Standard American English. This is a subtle but non-trivial difference: one point of view is about culture while the other is fundamentally about intelligence. Because many people hold the latter view, I was taught by my parents to avoid speaking AAVE. For similar reasons, I was taught to avoid Pittsburghese[1] even though I grew up with it in school. Are the two mutually exclusive? Can one dialect not be simply another with mistakes? I think it comes down to my earlier question: What is any dialect or derived language but a set of consistent mistakes with respect to the ancestor language? More to the point, either all dialects have mistakes or none do. The only difference I can see is the prestige involved. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_English
    - mattmaroon 17y ago
      Well, I wouldn't say the current speakers of AAVE are literally trying to speak English properly and making a mistake. I would say that the people who created it were. And I would say that the people who speak it now suffer for it just as if they were. Thus for all intents and purposes, it is English with mistakes, even if technically it is a dialect. So I guess her argument that mistakes + tradition = dialect seems silly to me. Even if its true by the dictionary definition of "dialect" it's a harmful viewpoint to take.
jfarmer 17y ago
It's not ludicrous, and you're being ignorant. Additionally, using words like "legitimate" and "devolved" illustrate perfectly the concept of high-prestige versus low-prestige language dialects. People don't speak AAVE because they're lazy or dumb. They speak AAVE because they grew up where everyone else speaks AAVE. If the South had won the Civil War you might not think using double negatives, double modals, etc. were a sign of stupidity -- AAVE and Southern (white) English share many common syntactic and morphological features.