4 ms·

> Telling that to kids can only have good effects. I disagree. I think the mistake you are making is the focus around what is or is not "error". It's not about

by jeromec 17y ago

> Telling that to kids can only have good effects. I disagree. I think the mistake you are making is the focus around what is or is not "error". It's not about that. My friend from Argentina constantly strives to improve his American English, rather than his AAVE, regardless of your insistence of the validity of AAVE. He now works in an office on the 17th floor where he hires people, and I knew him when he knew no English. Like it or not it does makes a difference.

kjhgftgyui 17y ago
Yes - if he had chosen to improve his British English he would be on the 20th floor. Or doomed to always play the villain in Holywood movies
- jeromec 17y ago
  > Yes - if he had chosen to improve his British English he would be on the 20th floor Quite possibly, especially if he had the accent to match, considering the success of James Bond movies in America.
  - kjhgftgyui 17y ago
    It is a real effect. UK companies analyse which regional British accents are most trusted/most calming/etc before deciding where to put their customer call centres.
    - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
      Though strangely, the "winners" in these things are usually accents that would generally be considered low-class in a similar manner to AAVE e.g. Scots and Geordie accents.
wrs 17y ago
I'm guessing your friend learned American English in an environment that recognized that his native language was something else (presumably a dialect of Spanish) and took that into account. Should native AAVE speakers not receive the same treatment?
- jeromec 17y ago
  I don't know what you mean by same treatment, as I'm sure any English course instructors told him it was incorrect to pronounce the "i" with an "e" sound.
  - wrs 17y ago
    Now I'm guessing you haven't RTFA. The point of the exercise is to teach Standard English more effectively to people whose native language is AAVE, not to teach people AAVE.
    - jeromec 17y ago
      My mom has a master's degree in Child Development, has been teaching for the past 15 years, and currently teaches a kindergarten class in Southern California consisting of inner-city kids of black, white, hispanic, Indian, and Asian descent. I know a fair amount about this topic, and her views are in line with mine. EDIT: I wanted to be sure I had my mom's views correct, so I asked her. To clarify, she says if a child is speaking ebonics she will explain there are different styles of speaking, and it depends on your audience. Speaking in that way is okay at home, for example, but in an academic setting the "correct" way is to go by the book.
      - jeromec 17y ago
        I need to reply to my own post above. I just had a long discussion with my mom, and at first found that we did not have the exact same views. However, she now agrees with me that when telling a child speaking ebonics at home is acceptable, even that is damaging, because it sends mixed signals, and should not be encouraged. There simply is no benefit to hanging on to usage of ebonics.
        loup-vaillant 17y ago
        (Warning: I use possibly incorrect stereotypes for the sake of the argument. Please correct me on them). I feel we don't understand each other. I'll try to restate what I said in more details. What if the kid speaks French? Most likely, he will speak French at home, and American English at school. Sometimes, he will employ the wrong word or make a grammatical mistake while trying to exploit similarities between the two languages. Any professor hearing this will call this an error. But but but, at home we say… say the poor boy. If the professor know French, he may answer What you say is more like French. In English, we say this…. Note this is not an encouragement to abandon French. Merely an encouragement to learn proper English. Now, replace French by AAVE (or Ebonics). What has changed? I agree that the two languages are highly similar. This may be confusing to the kid. There is two ways to handle this: (1) Saying to the kid that his last sentence wasn't proper English. This is very close to saying that he doesn't speak correctly, period. Knowing the way we speak at home, the kid can easily extend that statement to his parents or neighbours, and try to correct them, proud of the knowledge he just learned at school. I think this is dangerous, because this may be perceived a direct attack on their identity. This can lead the kid's family or friends to pressure him into not learning proper English, for instance by dismissing it as "speaking white" or something. (2) Saying to the kid that his last sentence was AAVE, not English. Making a sharp distinction between the two. Insisting that at school, you are to speak English, not Ebonics. So, when the kid get home, he won't try and correct his parents. He may point out the differences between English and AAVE, but won't speak of them as errors. This is hardly an attack on the identity of Ebonics speakers. Plus, it makes sense: "black speak" in the "black world" (home), "white speak" in the "white world" (school and work). As a consequence, there is less reason for his family or friends to insist that he doesn't speak proper English.

by jeromec 17y ago

kjhgftgyui 17y ago

Yes - if he had chosen to improve his British English he would be on the 20th floor. Or doomed to always play the villain in Holywood movies

jeromec 17y ago
> Yes - if he had chosen to improve his British English he would be on the 20th floor Quite possibly, especially if he had the accent to match, considering the success of James Bond movies in America.
- kjhgftgyui 17y ago
  It is a real effect. UK companies analyse which regional British accents are most trusted/most calming/etc before deciding where to put their customer call centres.
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    Though strangely, the "winners" in these things are usually accents that would generally be considered low-class in a similar manner to AAVE e.g. Scots and Geordie accents.

wrs 17y ago

I'm guessing your friend learned American English in an environment that recognized that his native language was something else (presumably a dialect of Spanish) and took that into account. Should native AAVE speakers not receive the same treatment?

jeromec 17y ago
I don't know what you mean by same treatment, as I'm sure any English course instructors told him it was incorrect to pronounce the "i" with an "e" sound.
- wrs 17y ago
  Now I'm guessing you haven't RTFA. The point of the exercise is to teach Standard English more effectively to people whose native language is AAVE, not to teach people AAVE.
  - jeromec 17y ago
    My mom has a master's degree in Child Development, has been teaching for the past 15 years, and currently teaches a kindergarten class in Southern California consisting of inner-city kids of black, white, hispanic, Indian, and Asian descent. I know a fair amount about this topic, and her views are in line with mine. EDIT: I wanted to be sure I had my mom's views correct, so I asked her. To clarify, she says if a child is speaking ebonics she will explain there are different styles of speaking, and it depends on your audience. Speaking in that way is okay at home, for example, but in an academic setting the "correct" way is to go by the book.
    - jeromec 17y ago
      I need to reply to my own post above. I just had a long discussion with my mom, and at first found that we did not have the exact same views. However, she now agrees with me that when telling a child speaking ebonics at home is acceptable, even that is damaging, because it sends mixed signals, and should not be encouraged. There simply is no benefit to hanging on to usage of ebonics.
      - loup-vaillant 17y ago
        (Warning: I use possibly incorrect stereotypes for the sake of the argument. Please correct me on them). I feel we don't understand each other. I'll try to restate what I said in more details. What if the kid speaks French? Most likely, he will speak French at home, and American English at school. Sometimes, he will employ the wrong word or make a grammatical mistake while trying to exploit similarities between the two languages. Any professor hearing this will call this an error. But but but, at home we say… say the poor boy. If the professor know French, he may answer What you say is more like French. In English, we say this…. Note this is not an encouragement to abandon French. Merely an encouragement to learn proper English. Now, replace French by AAVE (or Ebonics). What has changed? I agree that the two languages are highly similar. This may be confusing to the kid. There is two ways to handle this: (1) Saying to the kid that his last sentence wasn't proper English. This is very close to saying that he doesn't speak correctly, period. Knowing the way we speak at home, the kid can easily extend that statement to his parents or neighbours, and try to correct them, proud of the knowledge he just learned at school. I think this is dangerous, because this may be perceived a direct attack on their identity. This can lead the kid's family or friends to pressure him into not learning proper English, for instance by dismissing it as "speaking white" or something. (2) Saying to the kid that his last sentence was AAVE, not English. Making a sharp distinction between the two. Insisting that at school, you are to speak English, not Ebonics. So, when the kid get home, he won't try and correct his parents. He may point out the differences between English and AAVE, but won't speak of them as errors. This is hardly an attack on the identity of Ebonics speakers. Plus, it makes sense: "black speak" in the "black world" (home), "white speak" in the "white world" (school and work). As a consequence, there is less reason for his family or friends to insist that he doesn't speak proper English.