4 ms·

If France's laws are like Portugal's (which is typical), there's a flaw in your argument. It is very expensive to fire people, even when it is entirely justifi

If France's laws are like Portugal's (which is typical), there's a flaw in your argument. It is very expensive to fire people, even when it is entirely justified as a measure to save the company. Companies routinely go under because of this effect. The response is, typically, that you should be prudent when hiring, and allocate the firing cost so you can face dire straits and come out on the other side. However, companies act in a market. Your competitors either don't have the same laws or act imprudently. If you act too conservative, your company fails. A partial solution, for domestic competition leveling, is mandatory fund provisioning, for worker compensation. It's not perfect, but it mitigates the problem. Worker protection, albeit necessary, is not free. It's not free for the companies and it's not free for the society. This was an example of the price to pay.

bjourne 11y ago
Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company? I know roughly how it works in most Nordic countries (which have relatively employee-friendly labor laws) and it's not very expensive. A small company (Mandriva would be categorized as "small") can cite profitability problems (not enough revenue to cover salary costs) and layoff how many employees they want. There is a strict protocol to follow, such that those with the lowest seniority must be laid off first and then more senior personnel. The laid off employers unions must be notified two weeks (I think) in advance so that they can verify that the termination protocol is followed and protest if it isn't. This step is crucial, if the company makes formal errors they will be forced to pay several months extra in severance pay if the union is alerted. An example of a formal error is delivering the termination message orally and not in writing with a date and signatures. Then there is a severance period of 1-3 months based on the age of the employee. I think 1 month for < 35 years of age, 2 months for 35 - 45 and 3 months for > 45. During that period the employee is supposed to continue working for the employer but for various reasons often can't work 100%.
- sergiosgc 11y ago
  > Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company? If you can get a legitimate reason for dismissal, two months pay per year of past contract duration. Reasons for dismissal are quite limited, but in the case of Mandriva they could use the legal figure of "labour force reduction". Protocols are similar. You must fire lower seniority folks first, and you may not hire anyone for that position for a year. Employee and unions must be notified in advance. If you there is no legitimate reason for dismissal, you'll need to reach an agreement with the employee. Typically, it ends up as four months pay per past year of contract. The current government has softened these rules a lot, but they apply to new contracts only or to the contract period after the law was approved (depending on provisions for different parts of the new labour law).
  - bjourne 11y ago
    So are you saying that you have to pay someone 20 months of salaries if they have worked 10 years to fire someone due to "labour force redution"? I looked at this page and your stats doesn't seem right at all: http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang=en&p_country=PT&p_all_years=Y http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang...

bjourne 11y ago

Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company? I know roughly how it works in most Nordic countries (which have relatively employee-friendly labor laws) and it's not very expensive. A small company (Mandriva would be categorized as "small") can cite profitability problems (not enough revenue to cover salary costs) and layoff how many employees they want. There is a strict protocol to follow, such that those with the lowest seniority must be laid off first and then more senior personnel. The laid off employers unions must be notified two weeks (I think) in advance so that they can verify that the termination protocol is followed and protest if it isn't. This step is crucial, if the company makes formal errors they will be forced to pay several months extra in severance pay if the union is alerted. An example of a formal error is delivering the termination message orally and not in writing with a date and signatures. Then there is a severance period of 1-3 months based on the age of the employee. I think 1 month for < 35 years of age, 2 months for 35 - 45 and 3 months for > 45. During that period the employee is supposed to continue working for the employer but for various reasons often can't work 100%.

sergiosgc 11y ago
> Can you tell me what costs firing someone in Portugal incurs to a company? If you can get a legitimate reason for dismissal, two months pay per year of past contract duration. Reasons for dismissal are quite limited, but in the case of Mandriva they could use the legal figure of "labour force reduction". Protocols are similar. You must fire lower seniority folks first, and you may not hire anyone for that position for a year. Employee and unions must be notified in advance. If you there is no legitimate reason for dismissal, you'll need to reach an agreement with the employee. Typically, it ends up as four months pay per past year of contract. The current government has softened these rules a lot, but they apply to new contracts only or to the contract period after the law was approved (depending on provisions for different parts of the new labour law).
- bjourne 11y ago
  So are you saying that you have to pay someone 20 months of salaries if they have worked 10 years to fire someone due to "labour force redution"? I looked at this page and your stats doesn't seem right at all: http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang=en&p_country=PT&p_all_years=Y http://www.ilo.org/dyn/eplex/termdisplay.severancePay?p_lang...