7 ms·

This story has so many fascinating aspects to it: Firstly, that coastal land territory, a kind of currency of nationhood, with immense value, can just be creat

This story has so many fascinating aspects to it: Firstly, that coastal land territory, a kind of currency of nationhood, with immense value, can just be created from nothing. Next, that the faraway US is almost demanding that China stop, while most of the APAC nations whose sphere of influence is being encroached upon, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, seem to only make some barely audible sounds of displeasure. Vietnam and the Philippines have raised more significant objections, I think. Of course, apart from those issues, there is also the interesting question of the assumed rise of Chinese power, assumed weakening of US (and Western) power.

bilbo0s 11y ago
It goes a bit further than that though. Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Taiwan have all been running reclamation projects for some time in the very same disputed areas. The US now decides, since China has started doing so, that China should stop ??? Why, on EARTH, did we not get out in front of this problem and put the smack down on Vietnam, the Philippines, and Taiwan when they initially started down this road ??? It just makes our foreign policy look overtly transparent to third parties. I mean, the average EU citizen or South American probably looks at that and says... "Are you shitting me ???"
- melling 11y ago
  Nah, it's not too difficult to understand why it's a problem now. Did you read the article? "China claims almost the whole of the South China Sea, resulting in overlapping claims with its neighbours."
  - bilbo0s 11y ago
    ??? The thing is ... ALL of the claims overlap with the claims of neighbors. That's the entire problem. The claims of Vietnam overlap with the claims of Malaysia. The claims of the Philippines overlap with Taiwanese claims. (In fact, Taiwan's official position is that the entirety of the South China Sea falls under their sovereignty.) The fact is... this is a mess that we should have either refused to wade into... or been unmistakeably strict in enforcing our view. This is no place for waffling.
    - tzs 11y ago
      Did you look at the map in the article? China is overextending far beyond what any of the other countries are attempting. In some places there almost isn't any water left between the boundary of China's claim and the shores of the other country!
  - est 11y ago
    it was Republic of China claimed them first, back when most ASEAN countries didn't exist
  - mcintyre1994 11y ago
    It could be to do with a bigger push in the Spratlys too, that lands a long way from China and accepting them being there seems really close to accepting their claimed maritime border.
- yincrash 11y ago
  I suspect that the average EU citizen or South American would say as long as it's NIMBY, why should I care.
- jameshart 11y ago
  South China Sea economic rights has been a rumbling 'outstanding issue' in international politics for decades, this isn't particularly a new or significant shift in the geopolitical landscape. All the players are pushing at the boundaries of what they can get away with and the only constraint on that is the occasional international diplomatic objection.
ChuckMcM 11y ago
The APAC nations have actually made somewhat more than 'barely audible sounds of displeasure' but they aren't in a position to actually do anything about it. It is an excellent foreign policy problem set for doing analysis though. If you would like to develop more insight into nation-state politics this provides a great starting point. For suggested reading look over the south china sea disputes for the last 30 years and what others have said and what China has said, and actions various parties have taken. There are interesting side inputs as well, which is that this has been "disputed" for a long time but this sort of explicit action only started after Russia successfully annexed Crimea. As the US has been the 'big kid' on the block for a while which kept the bullies in line, and they have been distracted lately, and unwilling to commit seriously. Nation states are out testing just how safe it is to come out and oppress their neighbors again. At this point everyone should realize its going to get ugly until there is a single planetary political body, but nobody wants the 'other' system to be the basis for that. Interesting times indeed.
- FatalLogic 11y ago
  It's an interesting question, why aren't they in a position to do anything about it? An important part of the answer seems to be that they are incapable of working together, maybe because their internal decision-making is dominated by domestic political issues, which prevents strategic long-term planning. The other countries which have a reasonable claim within the area claimed by China have a total population of over 600 million, so collectively, they are not small fry (Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore). But there's little sign of concerted action from them. If we also consider the countries which have an interest in safe and unrestricted passage through those waters, such as Japan, then the total population concerned would easily surpass 1 billion.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    > why aren't they in a position to do anything about it? From what I have read, most of these nations are too economically tied to China, in that they are supplying goods into the factories (sub-assemblies) or otherwise part of the chain of value between manufacturing and market. That gives China the ability to economically depress them just by changing the rules by which they can import/export goods through China. From a foreign policy point of view the US could provide trade incentives with India, to boost manufacturing there for US and European markets which would give those APAC countries another "path" to market and blunt the economic threat of China cutting itself off. When looking at the world as a chess board each player has three 'heads', one is ideology, one is economic force, and one is military force. Complete power over an opponent is achieved when you have and advantage in all three, but sometimes any two is enough.

bilbo0s 11y ago

It goes a bit further than that though. Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Taiwan have all been running reclamation projects for some time in the very same disputed areas. The US now decides, since China has started doing so, that China should stop ??? Why, on EARTH, did we not get out in front of this problem and put the smack down on Vietnam, the Philippines, and Taiwan when they initially started down this road ??? It just makes our foreign policy look overtly transparent to third parties. I mean, the average EU citizen or South American probably looks at that and says... "Are you shitting me ???"

melling 11y ago
Nah, it's not too difficult to understand why it's a problem now. Did you read the article? "China claims almost the whole of the South China Sea, resulting in overlapping claims with its neighbours."
- bilbo0s 11y ago
  ??? The thing is ... ALL of the claims overlap with the claims of neighbors. That's the entire problem. The claims of Vietnam overlap with the claims of Malaysia. The claims of the Philippines overlap with Taiwanese claims. (In fact, Taiwan's official position is that the entirety of the South China Sea falls under their sovereignty.) The fact is... this is a mess that we should have either refused to wade into... or been unmistakeably strict in enforcing our view. This is no place for waffling.
  - tzs 11y ago
    Did you look at the map in the article? China is overextending far beyond what any of the other countries are attempting. In some places there almost isn't any water left between the boundary of China's claim and the shores of the other country!
- est 11y ago
  it was Republic of China claimed them first, back when most ASEAN countries didn't exist
- mcintyre1994 11y ago
  It could be to do with a bigger push in the Spratlys too, that lands a long way from China and accepting them being there seems really close to accepting their claimed maritime border.
yincrash 11y ago
I suspect that the average EU citizen or South American would say as long as it's NIMBY, why should I care.
jameshart 11y ago
South China Sea economic rights has been a rumbling 'outstanding issue' in international politics for decades, this isn't particularly a new or significant shift in the geopolitical landscape. All the players are pushing at the boundaries of what they can get away with and the only constraint on that is the occasional international diplomatic objection.

ChuckMcM 11y ago

The APAC nations have actually made somewhat more than 'barely audible sounds of displeasure' but they aren't in a position to actually do anything about it. It is an excellent foreign policy problem set for doing analysis though. If you would like to develop more insight into nation-state politics this provides a great starting point. For suggested reading look over the south china sea disputes for the last 30 years and what others have said and what China has said, and actions various parties have taken. There are interesting side inputs as well, which is that this has been "disputed" for a long time but this sort of explicit action only started after Russia successfully annexed Crimea. As the US has been the 'big kid' on the block for a while which kept the bullies in line, and they have been distracted lately, and unwilling to commit seriously. Nation states are out testing just how safe it is to come out and oppress their neighbors again. At this point everyone should realize its going to get ugly until there is a single planetary political body, but nobody wants the 'other' system to be the basis for that. Interesting times indeed.

FatalLogic 11y ago
It's an interesting question, why aren't they in a position to do anything about it? An important part of the answer seems to be that they are incapable of working together, maybe because their internal decision-making is dominated by domestic political issues, which prevents strategic long-term planning. The other countries which have a reasonable claim within the area claimed by China have a total population of over 600 million, so collectively, they are not small fry (Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, Taiwan, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore). But there's little sign of concerted action from them. If we also consider the countries which have an interest in safe and unrestricted passage through those waters, such as Japan, then the total population concerned would easily surpass 1 billion.
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  > why aren't they in a position to do anything about it? From what I have read, most of these nations are too economically tied to China, in that they are supplying goods into the factories (sub-assemblies) or otherwise part of the chain of value between manufacturing and market. That gives China the ability to economically depress them just by changing the rules by which they can import/export goods through China. From a foreign policy point of view the US could provide trade incentives with India, to boost manufacturing there for US and European markets which would give those APAC countries another "path" to market and blunt the economic threat of China cutting itself off. When looking at the world as a chess board each player has three 'heads', one is ideology, one is economic force, and one is military force. Complete power over an opponent is achieved when you have and advantage in all three, but sometimes any two is enough.