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I freelance and previously full-time frequently in this situation. What I always try to do is bring the developer on my side, establish lead and get a champion

I freelance and previously full-time frequently in this situation. What I always try to do is bring the developer on my side, establish lead and get a champion for you internally. If needed discuss with the client that you need more money or a higher hourly rate or hours set aside for each new implementation to go over it with internal staff. He already sees you as the lead so this is in your favor. This tactic is much more difficult if they believe their internal guy is competent, who isn't as competent -- very easy to fool bizdev level folks with low rates/visual when the backend is horrible. Also, you never know what that internal guy is going through. He could be consistently crunched and make way less. Usually internal guys have alot of other tasks that almost make it difficult to code in an efficient way. I like to see everyone I work with as a client, treat them like that and it will pay back. Just make sure you are getting your value you put in, don't do it where it starts to harm your income or the project you need to deliver. What you never want to do is create an enemy internally. You also have a chance to mentor someone a bit. Use that to your advantage which will also help the client. Not only will your project be better but internally you can improve the company. Remember you are a solution provider, they went externally because they have problems internally. If it drags on you, just ask for more money and show the increased workload in a nice way, if that is not respected then sometimes you have to let a client go.

moron4hire 11y ago
Thanks. You are absolutely right and this is the right answer. I just need to decide if it's worth the time or if I exit, stage-right instead. EDIT: ideally, I'd find someone to take over for me, and I'd keep the client in my consultancy, just not my responsibility. But I've had poor luck finding anyone willing to go come on fulltime for me.
- drawkbox 11y ago
  My advice to you is always have clear cut phases/projects. Always break it up and phases usually last 1-6 months. You always have the opportunity to ask for more or move on more easily where needed, but you never leave a client or project on a bad note but a delivery and approval/payment cycle. Never do some ongoing job like project that is just time with no clear cut deliverables. Have deliverables and get those approved at each stage in writing. Do not start the next stage until the previous is paid. I learned this one the hard way with a good client for years that became a bad client really fast when I believed they would pay after a 4 month project, it was my 30k stupid tax but also improved my processes and agreements.
- brudgers 11y ago
  It's better to 'lose the job' by raising your rates than to just flat out quit, because it lets your client save face. Telling them that their work is so bad that you refuse to work with them doesn't. So just pick a number that you don't think the client will be willing to pay and that's enough to take away a little of the pain. Then the worst that can happen is that they pay your unreasonable rate. But it also means that the relationship has changed and your input is recognized as much more valuable, and therefore more likely to be heeded in regard to staffing. And by "worst that can happen" I mean that you will be paid two or three times as much as before. On the other hand, if they turn your new offer down, you've essentially quit with no downside other than "we just can't afford it anymore." Not really even a burned bridge since they pulled the plug, not you. So long as you couch the change in rate as a simple evolution of your business based on the changing marketplace, they've got enough BS to rationalize their decision. Good luck.
MrBuddyCasino 11y ago
This is good advice, but also a bit cold-blooded - can money compensate for anything? I know for me it can't.
- ryall 11y ago
  Compensation is not really the point. Anything that'll affect the bottom line will make a business seriously consider what you have to say.
- drawkbox 11y ago
  It can't always, but like I mentioned, if it is too much you can move on, but never leave them high and dry. Money always at least temporarily helps and I happen to be a guy that likes to help see things to their agreed on goals even in some cases where I missed out on better projects or it has cost me. More money can get you through to that next, nicer time to move on. Typically freelance/outsourced projects don't last years, more like quarters. Sometimes it is not worth it 100%, but as a professional I typically finish the round I am on. Then the great side of being a freelancer is you can make yourself unavailable for future phases if it actually harming your business and or is an un-winnable battle. There is always some amount of battle in work though. In the end it is money, I have had lots of great clients and fun projects that have lost me money over the time I have put in, or over other project opportunities, to see things through with current projects. I typically move on from ones that do that unless it benefits me in other ways. I do projects to help fund my own projects, so sometimes work is just work to fund that and make that happen.
- click170 11y ago
  I once thought like that, until an accountant friend shared his point of view on the matter. That project you don't want to do, what amount of money would it take for you to accept that project? I'm not talking about what you think is a reasonable amount based on the work involved, put those thoughts aside. How much money would it take for you to actually be happy accepting that task? An extra 150K$? 500K$? 1M$? Because that's what you tell them your price is. They can shop around and go elsewhere if they choose, but don't immediately respond with a flat refusal, because this is an opportunity for a win-win.

moron4hire 11y ago

Thanks. You are absolutely right and this is the right answer. I just need to decide if it's worth the time or if I exit, stage-right instead. EDIT: ideally, I'd find someone to take over for me, and I'd keep the client in my consultancy, just not my responsibility. But I've had poor luck finding anyone willing to go come on fulltime for me.

drawkbox 11y ago
My advice to you is always have clear cut phases/projects. Always break it up and phases usually last 1-6 months. You always have the opportunity to ask for more or move on more easily where needed, but you never leave a client or project on a bad note but a delivery and approval/payment cycle. Never do some ongoing job like project that is just time with no clear cut deliverables. Have deliverables and get those approved at each stage in writing. Do not start the next stage until the previous is paid. I learned this one the hard way with a good client for years that became a bad client really fast when I believed they would pay after a 4 month project, it was my 30k stupid tax but also improved my processes and agreements.
brudgers 11y ago
It's better to 'lose the job' by raising your rates than to just flat out quit, because it lets your client save face. Telling them that their work is so bad that you refuse to work with them doesn't. So just pick a number that you don't think the client will be willing to pay and that's enough to take away a little of the pain. Then the worst that can happen is that they pay your unreasonable rate. But it also means that the relationship has changed and your input is recognized as much more valuable, and therefore more likely to be heeded in regard to staffing. And by "worst that can happen" I mean that you will be paid two or three times as much as before. On the other hand, if they turn your new offer down, you've essentially quit with no downside other than "we just can't afford it anymore." Not really even a burned bridge since they pulled the plug, not you. So long as you couch the change in rate as a simple evolution of your business based on the changing marketplace, they've got enough BS to rationalize their decision. Good luck.

MrBuddyCasino 11y ago

This is good advice, but also a bit cold-blooded - can money compensate for anything? I know for me it can't.

ryall 11y ago
Compensation is not really the point. Anything that'll affect the bottom line will make a business seriously consider what you have to say.
drawkbox 11y ago
It can't always, but like I mentioned, if it is too much you can move on, but never leave them high and dry. Money always at least temporarily helps and I happen to be a guy that likes to help see things to their agreed on goals even in some cases where I missed out on better projects or it has cost me. More money can get you through to that next, nicer time to move on. Typically freelance/outsourced projects don't last years, more like quarters. Sometimes it is not worth it 100%, but as a professional I typically finish the round I am on. Then the great side of being a freelancer is you can make yourself unavailable for future phases if it actually harming your business and or is an un-winnable battle. There is always some amount of battle in work though. In the end it is money, I have had lots of great clients and fun projects that have lost me money over the time I have put in, or over other project opportunities, to see things through with current projects. I typically move on from ones that do that unless it benefits me in other ways. I do projects to help fund my own projects, so sometimes work is just work to fund that and make that happen.
click170 11y ago
I once thought like that, until an accountant friend shared his point of view on the matter. That project you don't want to do, what amount of money would it take for you to accept that project? I'm not talking about what you think is a reasonable amount based on the work involved, put those thoughts aside. How much money would it take for you to actually be happy accepting that task? An extra 150K$? 500K$? 1M$? Because that's what you tell them your price is. They can shop around and go elsewhere if they choose, but don't immediately respond with a flat refusal, because this is an opportunity for a win-win.